[Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Sat Apr 14 19:05:16 PDT 2007
Mark,
I didn't say people concerned about water conservation have to be liberal. I think all people, should be.
Your stance against the Hawkins development is hurting local businesses. Your stance against a Super Wal Mart hurt small businesses in the Eastside Mall that were banking on the increase in traffic to the area.
I don't know of any businesses you have supported. Only ones you are against.
I am surprised you are unaware that Palouse Mall is evicting small local businesses. The laundry store is out next month. You can also call Market Time gifts, the Military Recruiters, Hunters, and any other businesses you noticed disappeared. They are being kicked out or forced to pay HUGE rental prices. The owners of the mall only want big chain stores in there. The Palouse Mall can charge whatever they want because no other malls on the palouse exist.
I honestly think you are harming the community when you pull this stuff. A Hawkins Mall is the only think that will allow local businesses equal footing in the retail establishment.
Best,
Donovan
Mark Solomon <msolomon at moscow.com> wrote:
At 6:00 PM -0700 4/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:
Donovan,
Examine the record instead of "understanding". I was not involved in any way with the Naylor Farm issue unless you consider serving on the county's Groundwater Task Force with such other liberals as Dan Carscallen and Cindy Agidius as somehow related to Naylor (which it wasn't despite Naylor's allegations to that effect). It would have been unethical for me to be involved, even if I had wanted to be which I didn't, as I was employed by the county at the time on the hydrogeological project. I never even knew James Toyota was moving until I read it in the paper and certainly have not registered any comments with anyone about that either. Businesses being evicted from the Mall? Give me a break. I don't have the faintest idea what you are referring to.
If your test for being unfriendly to business is telling SuperWalmart to stay out of town, then call me unfriendly to business. If your test is unmitigated devotion to big box chains over local businesses, then call me unfriendly to business. But that's the only place you'll have to stand.
m.
Mark, My understanding is that you also blocked Naylor Farms, clay extraction, the expansion of James Toyota, and other business that are being evicted from the Palouse Mall. You also helped create a reputation with others that Moscow is not business friendly. Thus this has resulted in other businesses that won't attempt to open a business in Moscow. The revenue saved by cheaper food and retail items, prescription drugs, etc, could have been used to support other industries as well and made life a little easier for the poor. You realize it is the poor, the elderly, disabled, and minorities that work, shop, and benefit from Wal-Mart? My high blood pressure would be going untreated if it weren't for the $3 a month prescription drug that ONLY Wal-Mart gives. Wal-Mart is not predatory. It provides high paying jobs to people. It hires people others won't. It has an overall positive impact on the economy:
http://www.globalinsight.com/About/PressRelease/PressRelease2439.htm I believe that Wal-Mart wanted a Super-Walmart, so it applied in both areas in the hopes that it would prevail in one. Best, Donovan
Mark Solomon <msolomon at moscow.com> wrote:
Donovan, "Every business you have blocked, Super Wal-Mart, on down the line"
While I'll certainly take part of the credit for keeping a predator like SuperWalmart out of town, please tell me what other stores I have blocked. I can't recall any. And by the way, SuperWalmart was well on the way towards opening a Pullman store before they ever even applied to build one in Moscow. As I've said previously (today), there is 40+ acres zoned and ready to build on in Moscow for big boxes, hate them as I do.
As far as the research I don't have time to dig around for: it's there. I've read it and I consider myself a truthful guy. If you want to refer me to your source for
" retail stores and services near Super-Walmart do excellent"
and make sure that it discusses existing mall retail space, not new big boxes, I'll be glad to read it and continue the discussion.
m.
Mark,
I wish you would make the time to review your research. I think you would find that retail stores and services near Super-Walmart do excellent. It is the businesses that are far away that suffer. When people cannot find what they are looking for at Wal-Mart, which is frequent, they go to nearby businesses, not to another section of town. When people are out shopping, they also visit restaurants and other service industries nearby.
I think the community is indebted to you and others that attempt to raise awareness of our environment and the limits of resources. I applaud the efforts of the you, the city, and many others in reducing water consumption by 15% over the last two years.
You wrote:
"The City is actively exploring alternative water sources. Assuming those actions continue we can as a community decide to spend some of the water capital we've saved on other uses."
I don't agree that we should take a socialist approach to business development as your actions and words seems to advocate. Private individuals have the right to establish businesses with their own capital that is at risk when invested. Consumers decide which businesses stay and go by supporting or not supporting the business. We as a community can establish regulations on all businesses equally. However, I think those restrictions are so severe that they are damaging the community while not preventing the extraction of our resources which you seek to protect because they simple go over the boarder.
Every business you have blocked, Super Wal-Mart, on down the line, simply moves across the boarder, and they are still going to extract the same amount of resources. The only difference is that the tax revenue is going to Washington, Whitman, and Pullman rather than Idaho, Latah, and Moscow. Why a reasonably intelligent person such as yourself cannot see that is what is happening is puzzling to me.
Best to you,
Donovan
Mark Solomon <msolomon at moscow.com> wrote:
Donovan,
I don't have time right now to dig out the original cite, but the research that has been done suggests strongly that rather than drawing new customers to old malls located by new big box developments they instead are their death knell. Newer, shinier, prettier, more "hip", etc: the attributes of consumer culture apply to architectural space as well as personal buying choices.
I was here when the Moscow Mall opened and you're absolutely correct.. it's been a dud since day one when it opened almost simultaneously with the Palouse Mall. As you say, location is everything and being closer to the Pullman consumer is a winner for the Palouse mall. It is why I support development, if it is going to occur, on the 40 acres already zoned for motor business behind the Palouse mall. Depending on the type of businesses contemplated there, water could be an issue, but it is one that we can address as a community. Moscow residents have reduced their water demand by about 15% in the past two years in response to the call for water conservation. The City is actively exploring alternative water sources. Assuming those actions continue we can as a community decide to spend some of the water capital we've saved on other uses.
m.
At 3:44 PM -0700 4/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:
Mark,
If you built the best mall on the far side of the moon would it get much business? Location is is everything in business and the Eastside Mall doesn't have much of one. That mall would be bumpin though if a Super Wal-Mart was put across the street.
You should have seen that mall when it was the Moscow Mall. You could have fired a cannon down the center of it and not killed a soul.
Best,
Donovan
And that somehow explains the, ahem, "under-occupancy rate" at the Eastside Mall?
m.
At 2:43 PM -0700 4/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:
Tom,
Businesses went under in the Palouse Mall because the Mall owners raised the rent really high so many left. A new mall will create competition and serve as a check on the lease prices. Also, the mall kicked out many smaller businesses that are locally owned in favor of big chain stores. Market Time Gifts was one forced out. The mall owners won't even let Book People in there.
It would be nice to have a mall that supports local business owners and counters the over inflated rent prices. This is the free market at work. One guy jacks his rates to the roof, so another builds one for cheaper.
Best,
Donovan
Tom Hansen <idahotom at hotmail.com> wrote:
Building more malls is NOT the answer. How many businesses have come and
gone from the Palouse Mall? And your answer is to build another mall?
That reminds me of a joke:
John and Jerry were buying widgets from a manufacturing warehouse at a
dollar each. To develop and exapnd a customer base they decided to undercut their competition by selling their widgets at 80 cents a piece.
Sure enough, customers were flocking to get more and more widgets from John
and Jerry. John realized that the more widgets the customers purchased, the
more widgets John and Jerry had to buy from the manufacturing warehouse.
Joh also realized that somehow they were losing money on this venture. John
approached Jerry and asked him what could be done to avoid further loss.
Jerry's response was, "Simple. We will get a larger truck."
Like John and Jerr's predicament, building another mall here in Moscow will
not solve anything.
We need to expand on career-oriented, professional jobs. As more and more
people move to Moscow seeking professional employment in a career-oriented
job, the more appealing another mall will be for retailers who will be
targeting more than just the college-age customer.
Tom Hansen
>From: "Matt Decker"
>To: thansen at moscow.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, msolomon at moscow.com,
> lfalen at turbonet.com, jampot at adelphia.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News
>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:18:40 -0700
>
>Tom,
>
>I do agree conservation and prevention should be on all our minds. Not just
>water, but also electricity, fossil fuels, and such.
>
>What I can't foresee, is why a company would want to move here. We have
>very little to offer. Very limited businesses, resturaunts, shopping areas,
>etc.
>
>I don't see how adding a costco, olive garden, red lobster, old navy, and
>whatever else comes into mind will kill our "perfect" little town. We could
>stand to grow a little without taking away the soul of our great little
>community.
>
>All of these will help draw in the bussiness types we would all hope for.
>With this current Mayor and council nothing will happen. She will focus on
>getting rid of poeple who oppose her. Instead of worrying about a $134,000
>fine we have now received from the feds. Along with keeping/seeking a
>conservation driven growth policy. Something that is very possible with our
>technology.
>
>Meantime, we lose bigtime money from our neighbors who seem to get it.
>Moscow and Pullman need to both thrive for conservation.
>
>Matt
>
>
>>From: "Tom Hansen"
>>To: "'Matt Decker'" ,
>>, ,
>>, ,
>>
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News
>>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 08:28:24 -0700
>>
>>I have no problem with housing development. As Moscow expands housing
>>development becomes an absolute necessity. Tacking on another
>>mega-shopping
>>center isn't.
>>
>>We have enough shopping malls to support the population of Moscow (as well
>>as Pullman). What we need is expansion of career-oriented professions
>>here
>>in Vandalville. More shelf-stockers and fast-food egg flippers merely
>>doesn’t fit the bill.
>>
>>As professional, career-oriented jobs develop and grow in Moscow, more
>>students will opt to stick around after graduation. Housing developments
>>will increase along with the tax base.
>>
>>Until we can calculate just how much water remains in the aquifer, we must
>>assume a defensive posture.
>>
>>If not, what will we do when the faucets run dry?
>>
>>Tom Hansen
>>Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
>>students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>
>>- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Matt Decker [mailto:mattd2107 at hotmail.com]
>>Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:08 AM
>>To: thansen at moscow.com; donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; msolomon at moscow.com;
>>lfalen at turbonet.com; jampot at adelphia.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News
>>
>>Tom,
>>
>>You stated"If we allow unlimited
>> >use of the aquifer by corporate "gluttons", it will disappear and our
>> >citizens will suffer. We must restrict access to our limited water
>> >sources
>> >until another source is identified and put into use."
>>
>>So are suggesting that we stop all houses being built? Maybe even a high
>>tech industrial baised company moving into Moscow? All this while Pullman >>catapults itself way ahead of us, and continues to drill new wells which
>>draw from the same water source. Thus drawing more business, residents,
>>and
>>tax revenue, most of which is beneficial to the area. Granted, some such
>>as
>>a Walmart I could go without. Along with growth would become more problems
>>too. However, the ending result will most likely create a better community
>>with more options.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>> >From: "Tom Hansen"
>> >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , "'Mark
>> >Solomon'" , "'lfalen'"
>>,
>>
>> > "'g. crabtree'" ,
>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News
>> >Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 06:05:17 -0700
>> >
>> >Arnold stated:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Mr. Solomon's ideas are not based on economic realities and don't solve
>> >the
>> >water problem, it just prolongs it."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >So, you are admitting that there is a water problem. If we allow
>>unlimited
>> >use of the aquifer by corporate "gluttons", it will disappear and our
>> >citizens will suffer. We must restrict access to our limited water
>> >sources
>> >until another source is identified and put into use.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Arnold goes on . . .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Thinking we shouldn't have stocking and service orientated jobs for
>> >students I think is a bad idea. First, those lower paying jobs should go
>>to
>> >college students, not 40 year olds trying to make a living; somebody has
>>to
>> >ask, "Would you like fries with that?" And I don't think it should be
>> >people
>> >middle aged with Master's in Environmental Science."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Our community NEEDS career-oriented, professional jobs if it is to
>>compete.
>> >If Moscow were to limit its growth to those minimum-wage,
>>service-oriented
>> >jobs you reference, those 10,000 college students (referenced by Dale
>> >Courtney below) will simply graduate and move on to greener pastures
>>away
>> >from Moscow.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Question: What 40 year olds and local residents "with Master's in
>> >Environmental Science" are you aware of that are hold these jobs at fast
>> >food outlets? I have lived here in Moscow for 15 years. All I have
>>seen
>> >are college students working at local fast food restaurants (as well as
>> >bartenders at my favorite haunts).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Tom Hansen
>> >
>> >Moscow, Idaho
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
>> >students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>> >
>> >- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>> >
>>
>>
>> >=======================================================
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>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >=======================================================
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today.
>>http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>=======================================================
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>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>=======================================================
>
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