[Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
Joe Campbell
joekc at adelphia.net
Tue Oct 24 10:33:35 PDT 2006
Dear Gary,
Sorry but you're analogy doesn't work.
In my example, I presumed that the 'punishment' for the first 5 years was the same between both prisoners. Thus, it is clear that the one who has 15 more years of punishment than the other suffers more. In your example, the suffering is worse for someone, but for a shorter period of time, than it is for another. And there is the general point, noted in my post to Kai, that some acts (like the "merciless beating") should never be performed, regardless of their favorable consequences.
I don't want to suggest that you can't fix the example but I should warn you that it is difficult to refute my point. The point comes from Epicurus, who believed that death was not a harm. When you are dead, there is no person to be harmed; when you are a person to be harmed, you are not dead.
According to Epicurus, most people suffer from an irrational fear of death, thus they mistakenly think that death is the worse thing that can happen to them and they try to avoid it at any cost. Epicurus thought that there were lots of things that were worse than death and I think that life in prison without the possibility of parole is one of them.
Interestingly, Epicurus thought that in order for one to overcome such fears, they needed to study philosophy! Yet, after studying philosophy for 20 years, most of my irrational fears remain!
I am not sure how to test the relevant hypothesis -- death is not a harm -- so I'm not sure what kind of evidence, other than the reasoning above, that I could offer in support of my claim.
Let me know if you think that you have a response to Epicurus!
Best, Joe
---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
=============
Joe, how does your "main point' stack up in the following scenario. A father
grounds his son for a month for misbehavior. Another father gives his son a
merciless beating that goes on for 15 min. for the same transgression. Is
the first father a harsher disciplinarian? Once the beating stops, the
suffering ends. Thus a son grounded for a month suffers more then a son
grounded for a weekend. After all his punishment goes on far longer then the
other mans does. A month, a weekend, or 15 minutes? You make the call.
Personally, I think that your comparing apples and oil filters.
Why do you suppose that the prisoners don't realize what a quick and easy
out the death penalty is. Do you suppose that they know something that you
don't? Seriously, which would you opt for?
gc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> Gary,
>
> Just to clarify, the main point that I was trying to make is a simple one.
> Once someone is dead, there is no longer any suffering. Thus, a person in
> prison for, say, 20 years suffers more than a person who is in prison for
> 5 years -- he suffers for 15 addition years!
>
> Best, Joe
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Bruce, I am not currently arguing the deterrent effect of the death
> penalty with Joe. I am simply trying to figure where he comes by the
> notion that "A long life in prison is far worse than a short death"
> considering the seeming evidence to the contrary. Your input and expertise
> on this topic is much appreciated.
>
> As I have said before on this forum, I find it difficult to believe that
> no angry or disgruntled potential killer has been given pause in his
> actions by the thought of harsh punishment. I find it hard to envision the
> method by which you could prove this type of negative.
>
> Even if it were determined beyond all shadow of a doubt that there was no
> deterrent effect in the death penalty I would still be in favor of capital
> punishment for a very select few, Duncan being a prime example. Confessed,
> remorseless, multiple murdering deviants such as him (along with Malvo,
> Creech, Ridgeway, Rader, etc.) should be put down as expeditiously as
> possible for, among other reasons, the danger they present to prison
> guards and fellow prisoners to say nothing of the general population,
> should they manage to get loose. If the argument is brought up that it's
> cheaper to sentence these offenders to LWOP, I would suggest that perhaps
> the appeal and review process should be streamlined to hasten these
> vermin's passing. When wild animals wantonly kill a human we do not lock
> them up for the rest of their natural lives. We destroy them as quickly
> and humanely as possible. I do not believe that these types of killers
> should be shown any greater courtesy.
>
>
> gc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce and Jean Livingston
> To: g. crabtree ; Joe Campbell
> Cc: vision2020
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>
>
> Funny that I crossed in the mail with Gary on this one.
>
> Let me say that I do not disagree with Mr. Sharp on the huge number of
> folks, proportionately, who get sentenced to death and choose life in
> prison over death. I think that is an accurate statement, regardless of
> whether the real numbers may be 99 % or 95 %. I have known a number of
> convicted murderers who instructed their attorneys not to appeal the death
> sentence, but then reconsidered and sought to avoid the death sentence and
> not just the guilty verdict.
>
> However, I would question the logic that concludes that because people
> fear death and would choose LWOP over execution, (if they could), that
> therefore the death penalty has a significant deterrent effect. For the
> most part, I think that those thoughts about preferring LWOP to execution
> only occur after the person has been caught.
>
> Bruce Livingston
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: g. crabtree
> To: Joe Campbell
> Cc: vision2020
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>
>
> Joe, thank you for the clarification. I will readily concede that the
> single statistic does not in and of itself totally support the conclusion.
> I obviously excerpted the quote from a larger work and, perhaps, should
> have excised the conclusion or included the entire argument. Either way,
> to throw Mr. Sharp under the bus as a charlatan because of my imprecision
> is to do him a serious disservice. A cursory look at his bio/CV reveals
> that he is indeed extremely knowledgeable in his field. This combined with
> the fact that you do not dispute the pertinent statistic causes me to
> disregard your charge on the appeal to authority fallacy.
>
> Mr. Sharp's scholarship and my lack of logical thinking aside, lets
> return to your original premise "A long life in prison is far worse than a
> short death." You've done a masterful job of tap dancing on my meager
> reasons for doubting your claim. Now how about you take on the more
> difficult task of providing some evidence to support why it is that you
> believe that 98.8% of inmates sentenced to death fight to remain alive if
> your contention is correct? What is it that you base your assertion on?
>
> gc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>
>
> > Dear Gary,
> >
> > Let me try to make the point more clearly.
> >
> > Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death since
> 1973, 85,
> > or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and been executed. 98.8% have
> not
> > waived appeals. The evidence is overwhelming that murderers would
> rather
> > live on death row than die."
> >
> > Here is the argument:
> > 1. 98.8% of inmates sentenced to death since 1973 have not waived
> appeals.
> > 2. Therefore, murderers would rather live on death row than die.
> >
> > How exactly does (1) support (2)? This is an invalid argument since
> conclusion (2) makes speculative claims about the will to live of
> murderers whereas premise (1) merely reports the percentage of folks who
> have and have not waved appeals.
> >
> > The content of the conclusion is substantially different from the
> content of the premise. No social scientist worth his salt would be so
> bold as to draw such a speculative conclusion based on such unrelated
> "facts." Your "expert" is no expert at all. Thus, you are guilty of the
> fallacy of appeal to authority.
> >
> > Does this make sense now?
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Well so much for the reasoned response. What I'm not finding in the
> usual
> > reply is anything to support your original contention. You seem to
> object to
> > any facts presented with no rational explanation. You style yourself
> an
> > expert and then present no expertise. You bluster and blather and
> attempt to
> > shift the discussion to different ground presumably because you find
> it
> > difficult, perhaps impossible to make your case. I guess I'll just
> have to
> > assume that you have nothing to back up your original assertion and
> that
> > this is the very best you can do. How surprising. I guess it's time
> to let
> > this sorry topic die. (after your disjointed, wounded, and yet
> strangely
> > self congratulatory, reply of course.)
> >
> > gc
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Locksmith Crabtree! The recent cold has been getting me
> down, so
> > I much appreciate the large dose of hot air coming from your
> direction!
> >
> > I did not dispute the "facts" noted by your "expert." What I disputed
> was
> > his opinionated conclusion and the suggestion that it followed from
> the
> > "facts."
> >
> > Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death since
> 1973, 85,
> > or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and been executed. 98.8% have
> not
> > waived appeals. The evidence is overwhelming that murderers would
> rather
> > live on death row than die."
> >
> > The facts do not support the conclusion; the inference is hogwash.
> Believe
> > me, for I'm an expert! As you noted, I teach logic in my day job! You
> seem
> > to be a bit selective in who you choose to lable "expert," though, so
> it is
> > doubtful that this will impress you. (The key factor appears to be
> that the
> > "expert" happens to agree with you.)
> >
> > Suppose I say that (1) Mike Rogers claims that Larry Craig cheats on
> his
> > wife and add that (2) Mike Rodges is an expert who supports his views
> with
> > "facts." Can I pass this off as evidence and argument, too?
> >
> > You need to tell me how it is that your "expert" gets to his
> conclusion from
> > the scant facts that you've presented. If you can do this, his
> expertise
> > won't matter, for I know a good argument when I see it. Moreover,
> you'll
> > have convinced me that your view IS supported by facts and inference.
> As it
> > is it appears to be based on the false assumption that all of our
> problems
> > will go away once we start killing more people.
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Professor Campbell, let me see if I understand you correctly. You
> claim that
> > I have committed the logical fallacy of appeal to authority and then
> provide
> > nothing to backup your assertion. I would think that to make your
> charge
> > stick you would have to A. Provide some evidence that Mr.Sharp is not
> > knowledgeable on the topic being discussed or B. (and more
> importantly)
> > that the statistics he cites are in error, Or C. That I am
> misapplying Mr.
> > Sharp's expertise or statistics. Quoting an person knowledgeable in
> the
> > field who is referencing verifiable statistics is NOT a logical
> fallacy.
> > (You actually teach logic? As your "day job?") It would seem that
> you've
> > achieved the enlightened state of "I'm right and facts be damned."
> With
> > that in mind, I guess I would enjoy seeing what you can come up with
> by way
> > of "neat quotes in favor of your position." I would hope that they
> might
> > contain a scrap of fact rather then the usual emotion and fallacious
> > statement that has been characteristic of your previous responses.
> What
> > empirical data or statistic can you provide to support your assertion
> that
> > "A long life in prison is far worse than a short death?" What pearl
> of
> > reason will you come up with to counter the pesky fact (in bold
> below) that,
> > statistically, murderers prefer to be behind bars rather then
> answering to
> > their Maker? I would have thought that as man who pridefully
> proclaims "I
> > am an expert about KNOWLEDGE." you should surely be able to set me
> straight
> > in short order. Instead all I'm seeing is fallacy followed by
> mistake. I
> > look forward to a reasoned response. Baring that, I guess I'll have
> to
> > settle for your usual reply.
> >
> > gc
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >
> >
> >> Sorry for not responding to your wonderful example of an appeal to
> >> authority earlier, Gary, but I've been busy with my day job.
> >>
> >> Here is my response: Your comments below commit the fallacy of
> appeal to
> >> authority. Do you really think that I can't find some neat quotes on
> the
> >> web in favor of my position?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Joe Campbell
> >>
> >> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> =============
> >> Actually Joe, if by empirical you meant "derived from or guided by
> >> experience or observation" I would have no choice but to disagree. I
> would
> >> think that just about everyone who has given even the most fleeting
> >> attention to the news for the last few years could cite five or more
> >> instances of murderers fighting to avoid the death penalty for every
> one
> >> that embraces that option. According to the folks at DPINFO.COM
> (death
> >> penalty information) what appears to be an unbiased clearinghouse
> for this
> >> type of information.
> >>
> >> "At every level of the criminal justice process, virtually all
> criminals
> >> do everything they can to lessen possible punishments. I estimate
> that
> >> less than 1% of all convicted capital murderers request a death
> sentence
> >> in the punishment phase of their trial. The apprehended criminals'
> desire
> >> for lesser punishments is overwhelming and unchallenged.
> >>
> >>Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death since 1973, 85, or 1.2% have
> waived
> >>remaining appeals and been executed. 98.8% have not waived appeals.
> The
> >>evidence is overwhelming that murderers would rather live on death
> row than
> >>die. Why? The survival effect -- life is preferred over death and
> death
> >>is feared more than life. Even on death row, that is the rule."
> >>Dudley Sharp, Resource Director, Justice For All
> >>
> >> With this in mind, I would contend that your assertion that "It is
> not as
> >> if your view has any more empirical support than mine!" is, once
> again,
> >> wrong.
> >>
> >> gc
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> >> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> >> Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:50 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >>
> >>
> >>> Gary,
> >>>
> >>> It is not as if your view has any more empirical support than mine!
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Joe Campbell
> >>>
> >>> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> =============
> >>> Reason #3: A long life in prison is far worse than a short death.
> >>>
> >>> If this is truly the case, why do you suppose so many vermin such
> as
> >>> Duncan
> >>> prefer/fight for the life sentence? For the most part this, is true
> of
> >>> all
> >>> convicted killers. What do you base your contention on? I can't
> imagine
> >>> that
> >>> it's even how you, personally, would feel should you ever be in a
> similar
> >>> circumstance. (not that you would, of course) This "long life in
> prison
> >>> is
> >>> worse than death." mantra seems to be bandied about as a truism
> with
> >>> precious little supporting evidence. In fact, most evidence points
> the
> >>> other
> >>> way.
> >>>
> >>> gc
> >>> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> >>> To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >>> Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:33 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Pat,
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately, the fact is that you and I will pay more if he is
> >>>> (eventually) put to death. Yet another reason not to have the
> death
> >>>> penalty.
> >>>>
> >>>> Reason #3: .A long life in prison is far worse than a short death
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Joe Campbell
> >>>>
> >>>> ---- Pat Kraut <pkraut at moscow.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> =============
> >>>> But why do I have to pay for him to continue to have life in any
> form?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If we do discover a complete theory..of everything...we shall all,
> >>>> philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people,
> >>>> be able to take part in the discussion of why it is that we and
> the
> >>>> universe
> >>>> exist if we find the answer to that,
> >>>> it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason...for then we
> would
> >>>> know
> >>>> the mind of God.
> >>>> Stephen Hawking
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: <whayman at adelphia.net>
> >>>> To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> >>>> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:09 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello all,
> >>>>
> >>>> I would agree with anyone that Duncan tests the limits much more
> than
> >>>> even
> >>>> more than Malvo in the DC area. What Duncan apparently did lies
> outside
> >>>> the
> >>>> human scope of sympathy. But even within this absolutely and
> >>>> disgustingly
> >>>> twisted psychopathic scenario, I still cannot advocate a penalty
> of
> >>>> death
> >>>> for anyone. Duncan included.
> >>>>
> >>>> Killing, as we all know, brings back no one. The argument of the
> death
> >>>> penalty as resolution and closure I find closer to vengeance than
> >>>> justice.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please don't take me wrong; I don't think rehab etc. is the issue
> in
> >>>> this
> >>>> case. I do hope that the rest of his life is spent anonymously and
> >>>> ignobly
> >>>> incarcerated.
> >>>>
> >>>> Warren Hayman
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> =======================================================
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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