[Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
g. crabtree
jampot at adelphia.net
Sat Oct 21 15:43:34 PDT 2006
Joe, how does your "main point' stack up in the following scenario. A father
grounds his son for a month for misbehavior. Another father gives his son a
merciless beating that goes on for 15 min. for the same transgression. Is
the first father a harsher disciplinarian? Once the beating stops, the
suffering ends. Thus a son grounded for a month suffers more then a son
grounded for a weekend. After all his punishment goes on far longer then the
other mans does. A month, a weekend, or 15 minutes? You make the call.
Personally, I think that your comparing apples and oil filters.
Why do you suppose that the prisoners don't realize what a quick and easy
out the death penalty is. Do you suppose that they know something that you
don't? Seriously, which would you opt for?
gc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> Gary,
>
> Just to clarify, the main point that I was trying to make is a simple one.
> Once someone is dead, there is no longer any suffering. Thus, a person in
> prison for, say, 20 years suffers more than a person who is in prison for
> 5 years -- he suffers for 15 addition years!
>
> Best, Joe
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Bruce, I am not currently arguing the deterrent effect of the death
> penalty with Joe. I am simply trying to figure where he comes by the
> notion that "A long life in prison is far worse than a short death"
> considering the seeming evidence to the contrary. Your input and expertise
> on this topic is much appreciated.
>
> As I have said before on this forum, I find it difficult to believe that
> no angry or disgruntled potential killer has been given pause in his
> actions by the thought of harsh punishment. I find it hard to envision the
> method by which you could prove this type of negative.
>
> Even if it were determined beyond all shadow of a doubt that there was no
> deterrent effect in the death penalty I would still be in favor of capital
> punishment for a very select few, Duncan being a prime example. Confessed,
> remorseless, multiple murdering deviants such as him (along with Malvo,
> Creech, Ridgeway, Rader, etc.) should be put down as expeditiously as
> possible for, among other reasons, the danger they present to prison
> guards and fellow prisoners to say nothing of the general population,
> should they manage to get loose. If the argument is brought up that it's
> cheaper to sentence these offenders to LWOP, I would suggest that perhaps
> the appeal and review process should be streamlined to hasten these
> vermin's passing. When wild animals wantonly kill a human we do not lock
> them up for the rest of their natural lives. We destroy them as quickly
> and humanely as possible. I do not believe that these types of killers
> should be shown any greater courtesy.
>
>
> gc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce and Jean Livingston
> To: g. crabtree ; Joe Campbell
> Cc: vision2020
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>
>
> Funny that I crossed in the mail with Gary on this one.
>
> Let me say that I do not disagree with Mr. Sharp on the huge number of
> folks, proportionately, who get sentenced to death and choose life in
> prison over death. I think that is an accurate statement, regardless of
> whether the real numbers may be 99 % or 95 %. I have known a number of
> convicted murderers who instructed their attorneys not to appeal the death
> sentence, but then reconsidered and sought to avoid the death sentence and
> not just the guilty verdict.
>
> However, I would question the logic that concludes that because people
> fear death and would choose LWOP over execution, (if they could), that
> therefore the death penalty has a significant deterrent effect. For the
> most part, I think that those thoughts about preferring LWOP to execution
> only occur after the person has been caught.
>
> Bruce Livingston
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: g. crabtree
> To: Joe Campbell
> Cc: vision2020
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>
>
> Joe, thank you for the clarification. I will readily concede that the
> single statistic does not in and of itself totally support the conclusion.
> I obviously excerpted the quote from a larger work and, perhaps, should
> have excised the conclusion or included the entire argument. Either way,
> to throw Mr. Sharp under the bus as a charlatan because of my imprecision
> is to do him a serious disservice. A cursory look at his bio/CV reveals
> that he is indeed extremely knowledgeable in his field. This combined with
> the fact that you do not dispute the pertinent statistic causes me to
> disregard your charge on the appeal to authority fallacy.
>
> Mr. Sharp's scholarship and my lack of logical thinking aside, lets
> return to your original premise "A long life in prison is far worse than a
> short death." You've done a masterful job of tap dancing on my meager
> reasons for doubting your claim. Now how about you take on the more
> difficult task of providing some evidence to support why it is that you
> believe that 98.8% of inmates sentenced to death fight to remain alive if
> your contention is correct? What is it that you base your assertion on?
>
> gc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
>
>
> > Dear Gary,
> >
> > Let me try to make the point more clearly.
> >
> > Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death since
> 1973, 85,
> > or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and been executed. 98.8% have
> not
> > waived appeals. The evidence is overwhelming that murderers would
> rather
> > live on death row than die."
> >
> > Here is the argument:
> > 1. 98.8% of inmates sentenced to death since 1973 have not waived
> appeals.
> > 2. Therefore, murderers would rather live on death row than die.
> >
> > How exactly does (1) support (2)? This is an invalid argument since
> conclusion (2) makes speculative claims about the will to live of
> murderers whereas premise (1) merely reports the percentage of folks who
> have and have not waved appeals.
> >
> > The content of the conclusion is substantially different from the
> content of the premise. No social scientist worth his salt would be so
> bold as to draw such a speculative conclusion based on such unrelated
> "facts." Your "expert" is no expert at all. Thus, you are guilty of the
> fallacy of appeal to authority.
> >
> > Does this make sense now?
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Well so much for the reasoned response. What I'm not finding in the
> usual
> > reply is anything to support your original contention. You seem to
> object to
> > any facts presented with no rational explanation. You style yourself
> an
> > expert and then present no expertise. You bluster and blather and
> attempt to
> > shift the discussion to different ground presumably because you find
> it
> > difficult, perhaps impossible to make your case. I guess I'll just
> have to
> > assume that you have nothing to back up your original assertion and
> that
> > this is the very best you can do. How surprising. I guess it's time
> to let
> > this sorry topic die. (after your disjointed, wounded, and yet
> strangely
> > self congratulatory, reply of course.)
> >
> > gc
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Locksmith Crabtree! The recent cold has been getting me
> down, so
> > I much appreciate the large dose of hot air coming from your
> direction!
> >
> > I did not dispute the "facts" noted by your "expert." What I disputed
> was
> > his opinionated conclusion and the suggestion that it followed from
> the
> > "facts."
> >
> > Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death since
> 1973, 85,
> > or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and been executed. 98.8% have
> not
> > waived appeals. The evidence is overwhelming that murderers would
> rather
> > live on death row than die."
> >
> > The facts do not support the conclusion; the inference is hogwash.
> Believe
> > me, for I'm an expert! As you noted, I teach logic in my day job! You
> seem
> > to be a bit selective in who you choose to lable "expert," though, so
> it is
> > doubtful that this will impress you. (The key factor appears to be
> that the
> > "expert" happens to agree with you.)
> >
> > Suppose I say that (1) Mike Rogers claims that Larry Craig cheats on
> his
> > wife and add that (2) Mike Rodges is an expert who supports his views
> with
> > "facts." Can I pass this off as evidence and argument, too?
> >
> > You need to tell me how it is that your "expert" gets to his
> conclusion from
> > the scant facts that you've presented. If you can do this, his
> expertise
> > won't matter, for I know a good argument when I see it. Moreover,
> you'll
> > have convinced me that your view IS supported by facts and inference.
> As it
> > is it appears to be based on the false assumption that all of our
> problems
> > will go away once we start killing more people.
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Professor Campbell, let me see if I understand you correctly. You
> claim that
> > I have committed the logical fallacy of appeal to authority and then
> provide
> > nothing to backup your assertion. I would think that to make your
> charge
> > stick you would have to A. Provide some evidence that Mr.Sharp is not
> > knowledgeable on the topic being discussed or B. (and more
> importantly)
> > that the statistics he cites are in error, Or C. That I am
> misapplying Mr.
> > Sharp's expertise or statistics. Quoting an person knowledgeable in
> the
> > field who is referencing verifiable statistics is NOT a logical
> fallacy.
> > (You actually teach logic? As your "day job?") It would seem that
> you've
> > achieved the enlightened state of "I'm right and facts be damned."
> With
> > that in mind, I guess I would enjoy seeing what you can come up with
> by way
> > of "neat quotes in favor of your position." I would hope that they
> might
> > contain a scrap of fact rather then the usual emotion and fallacious
> > statement that has been characteristic of your previous responses.
> What
> > empirical data or statistic can you provide to support your assertion
> that
> > "A long life in prison is far worse than a short death?" What pearl
> of
> > reason will you come up with to counter the pesky fact (in bold
> below) that,
> > statistically, murderers prefer to be behind bars rather then
> answering to
> > their Maker? I would have thought that as man who pridefully
> proclaims "I
> > am an expert about KNOWLEDGE." you should surely be able to set me
> straight
> > in short order. Instead all I'm seeing is fallacy followed by
> mistake. I
> > look forward to a reasoned response. Baring that, I guess I'll have
> to
> > settle for your usual reply.
> >
> > gc
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >
> >
> >> Sorry for not responding to your wonderful example of an appeal to
> >> authority earlier, Gary, but I've been busy with my day job.
> >>
> >> Here is my response: Your comments below commit the fallacy of
> appeal to
> >> authority. Do you really think that I can't find some neat quotes on
> the
> >> web in favor of my position?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Joe Campbell
> >>
> >> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> =============
> >> Actually Joe, if by empirical you meant "derived from or guided by
> >> experience or observation" I would have no choice but to disagree. I
> would
> >> think that just about everyone who has given even the most fleeting
> >> attention to the news for the last few years could cite five or more
> >> instances of murderers fighting to avoid the death penalty for every
> one
> >> that embraces that option. According to the folks at DPINFO.COM
> (death
> >> penalty information) what appears to be an unbiased clearinghouse
> for this
> >> type of information.
> >>
> >> "At every level of the criminal justice process, virtually all
> criminals
> >> do everything they can to lessen possible punishments. I estimate
> that
> >> less than 1% of all convicted capital murderers request a death
> sentence
> >> in the punishment phase of their trial. The apprehended criminals'
> desire
> >> for lesser punishments is overwhelming and unchallenged.
> >>
> >>Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death since 1973, 85, or 1.2% have
> waived
> >>remaining appeals and been executed. 98.8% have not waived appeals.
> The
> >>evidence is overwhelming that murderers would rather live on death
> row than
> >>die. Why? The survival effect -- life is preferred over death and
> death
> >>is feared more than life. Even on death row, that is the rule."
> >>Dudley Sharp, Resource Director, Justice For All
> >>
> >> With this in mind, I would contend that your assertion that "It is
> not as
> >> if your view has any more empirical support than mine!" is, once
> again,
> >> wrong.
> >>
> >> gc
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> >> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> >> Cc: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:50 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >>
> >>
> >>> Gary,
> >>>
> >>> It is not as if your view has any more empirical support than mine!
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Joe Campbell
> >>>
> >>> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> =============
> >>> Reason #3: A long life in prison is far worse than a short death.
> >>>
> >>> If this is truly the case, why do you suppose so many vermin such
> as
> >>> Duncan
> >>> prefer/fight for the life sentence? For the most part this, is true
> of
> >>> all
> >>> convicted killers. What do you base your contention on? I can't
> imagine
> >>> that
> >>> it's even how you, personally, would feel should you ever be in a
> similar
> >>> circumstance. (not that you would, of course) This "long life in
> prison
> >>> is
> >>> worse than death." mantra seems to be bandied about as a truism
> with
> >>> precious little supporting evidence. In fact, most evidence points
> the
> >>> other
> >>> way.
> >>>
> >>> gc
> >>> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> >>> To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >>> Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:33 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Pat,
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately, the fact is that you and I will pay more if he is
> >>>> (eventually) put to death. Yet another reason not to have the
> death
> >>>> penalty.
> >>>>
> >>>> Reason #3: .A long life in prison is far worse than a short death
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Joe Campbell
> >>>>
> >>>> ---- Pat Kraut <pkraut at moscow.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> =============
> >>>> But why do I have to pay for him to continue to have life in any
> form?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If we do discover a complete theory..of everything...we shall all,
> >>>> philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people,
> >>>> be able to take part in the discussion of why it is that we and
> the
> >>>> universe
> >>>> exist if we find the answer to that,
> >>>> it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason...for then we
> would
> >>>> know
> >>>> the mind of God.
> >>>> Stephen Hawking
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: <whayman at adelphia.net>
> >>>> To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> >>>> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:09 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea deal
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello all,
> >>>>
> >>>> I would agree with anyone that Duncan tests the limits much more
> than
> >>>> even
> >>>> more than Malvo in the DC area. What Duncan apparently did lies
> outside
> >>>> the
> >>>> human scope of sympathy. But even within this absolutely and
> >>>> disgustingly
> >>>> twisted psychopathic scenario, I still cannot advocate a penalty
> of
> >>>> death
> >>>> for anyone. Duncan included.
> >>>>
> >>>> Killing, as we all know, brings back no one. The argument of the
> death
> >>>> penalty as resolution and closure I find closer to vengeance than
> >>>> justice.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please don't take me wrong; I don't think rehab etc. is the issue
> in
> >>>> this
> >>>> case. I do hope that the rest of his life is spent anonymously and
> >>>> ignobly
> >>>> incarcerated.
> >>>>
> >>>> Warren Hayman
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>> =======================================================
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list