[Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for Reservoir?

Wed Oct 11 16:38:23 PDT 2006

Wayne,

  You wrote:

  "Whether these numbers you present are true or not, they do not support  the allegations you made in the paragraph I cited.  That paragraph  was a gross exaggeration and when I was a kid, would have been called a  bald-faced lie."

  In response to me stating:

  "In  Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a three or four bedroom  house.  Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year, our county  population is shrinking and native Moscow residents are being replaced  by Californians and others not from here because of the cost of living  and lack of job opportunities."

  OK Wayne, since you seem to unable to research simple facts on your own, I will break it down so can follow: 

  First Sentence of quote:

  "In Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a     three or four bedroom house. " 

   PROOF: Math doesn't Lie, therefore, lets use it:

  Look on any mortgage calculator and you will see that a $123,000 (average home price) home mortgage is less than $700 a month.

  A family that puts down $20,000 down on an average home in Boise, at 6%  interest rate (about avg.) pays only $600 a month. Count in property  taxes, that is about $700 a month. If you don't believe it, do the  calculation yourself:

  http://www.mortgage-calc.com/amortization/amortizationscheduleandcalculator.html

  Or find a calculator yourself by doing a search on the Internet. It is pretty simple.

  Second phrase in the quote:

  "Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year"

  Proof: Again, listed on: 

  http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Moscow.html

  Gross Income for an entire household in Moscow, two people working: 
  $30,125.0 

  Third Phrase:
  "our county population is shrinking"

  PROOF: According to the Idaho Department of Commerce/Labor  http://lmi.idaho.gov/admin/uploadedPublications/4012_fyi_urban.pdf#search=%22Latah%20County%20Population%20declined%22

  Latah lost about 200 residents from 2000-2005 while the state gained record population increases. 

  Last Statement:
  "native Moscow residents are being     replaced by Californians" 

  It is true, call the DMV (883-7216).   
  They  replace California driver's licenses more than any other with the  exception of Washington which is right next door. Californians are  coming in, Idahoans are going out. 
  And no they are not college students, they don't have to change driver's licenses only permanent residents do. 

  So  before you call me a liar, do some research first. I shouldn't have to  prove already well established facts that ANY freshman high school  student can verify with a simple Internet search.

    Best,

  _DJA

Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:          Whether  these numbers you present are true or not, they do not support the  allegations you made in the paragraph I cited.  That paragraph was  a gross exaggeration and when I was a kid, would have been called a  bald-faced lie.

  W.
  ----- Original Message -----   From: Donovan Arnold 
  To: Art   Deco ; Vision 2020 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for Reservoir?

Wayne,

Affordability  of a place in Boise is less than that of Moscow. If you don't know  that, you are living in another world. Just do a little research will  ya: Here I will get you started:

Consider:

http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Boise.html
and
http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Moscow.html
and   even:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL1608830.html

Boise:

$58,489 Average Family   Income

$125,767.0 Average Home Price

1977 is the average year   build for a home

5.4 rooms is the average size of a home

Compare to Moscow:

$46,331 Medium   Family Income (not College students)

$128,500.0 Average Home   Price

1973 Average Age of a Home

4.9 Rooms is Average Size of   Home.

http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Boise.html

The  numbers don't lie Wayne. If you are paying more for a home, earning  less, the house is smaller, and older, it is less affordable. I hope  you understand that.

Talk to anyone that has lived  both in Moscow and Boise, that works for living, if they think it is  cheaper to live in Moscow than Boise. Now, if I got $1 million in the  bank or am living on fixed income, Moscow is cheaper, but if you are  working for an income, it is more affordable to live in Boise than  Moscow. 

Look at what you get for $800 in Boise, and what you  get for $800 in Moscow for rent. Then take 15% off your income in  Moscow and see which is the better deal. Good grief, I would think you  were oblivious to the housing rates in Moscow and housing boom in  Boise. 

Best,

_DJA

Art Deco <deco at moscow.com>   wrote:                Donovan writes:

    "In  Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a three or four bedroom  house.  Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year, our county  population is shrinking and native Moscow residents are being replaced  by Californians and others not from here because of the cost of living  and lack of job opportunities."

    If you want to be taken seriously please tell us the sources of  the above information and expand the details:  What  percentage of 3 - 4 BR homes in Boise can be had on a regular mortgage  for $700.00/month?  What is the average cost of a 3 - 4 BR house  in the Boise Metro area?  What is the average mortgage  amount?  What is the average monthly payment?  What is the  average income in Moscow when students are not counted in the  data?  How many Moscow natives were displaced by Californians  beyond those that would have left anyway?  How are these numbers  different for similar sized cities in the west which are islands in  rural agricultural or forest resource areas?

    Since the issue of water quality and quantity is important     to many on this list, please give the sources  for your information or resign yourself to be regarded once and for all  times as the area's largest but not cleverest fabulist.

    Donovan writes:

    "I  don't think that conservation is the solution to our problem. I think  water levels are not decreasing because of our consumption rate, but  rather because of a shift in global weather patterns. Even if Moscow  residents left town all today, the water would still run out.   Just look at all the other aquifers around the world that are also  declining."

    Let's  see.  The aquifers are declining since they are not being  replenished as quickly worldwide and not because water is being pumped  from them.   Hmmm.   So pumping water from aquifers  has little or no effect on their levels?  Please give some scientific sources  for this amazing statement including sources for data that purport to  show that precipitation is declining globally.  Is it your  contention that if we were to stop pumping groundwater, the levels  would still be falling at the same rate?   Perhaps a solution  to your great knowledge would be a simple Googling on "global aquifers"  and a few minutes reading.

    Since the aquifers are falling for whatever cause or     causes, it seems to me that is all the more reason to conserve.

    After  you Google on "global aquifers," try Googling to discover the problems  with using surface water for urban use and what the project urban use  is over the next few years.

    Without  commenting on your Naylor Farms remarks in depth, it should be asked  that if Naylor Farms cannot even retain an effective attorney  who can correctly fill out a CUP application form or a competent,  believable geologist, is it reasonable to expect that they  could even begin to competently design, finance, and construct a large  privately financed public works project?

    There  is no doubt that the cost to taxpayers for water and many other natural  resources will increase sharply over the next few years.  This  reasons for this rise includes the rise in population, dwindling  resources, and a sharp rise in the long term ecological debt  we have now and continue to accumulate at an accelerating pace.

    This  community has lots of citizens that do not understand the local or  global water resource issue, do not want to understand it, have all  kinds of absurd, ill-defined plans to solve it, and do not want to pay  for its solution in any way -- financially or change in habits.

    Old,  and coming from a childhood in communities where most of the citizens  then faced major problems and worked together, more or  less, to try to solve them, I find the cultural shift to wide  scale me-ism a sign that worst times are to come.

    I  am glad that my life expectancy is short so that I won't have to see  the near term ecological catastrophes and the sufferings wrought by  them, and won't have to listen to the lame excuses of those that by  their abysmal ignorance, uninformed opinionating, and selfish  me-centered inaction helped bring them about.

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

    -----     Original Message -----     From:     Donovan Arnold 
    To: Joe Campbell 
    Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
    Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:21 PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for     Reservoir?

Joe,

I  can tell you this. Although I think it is always a good idea to have a  plan B and even a plan C and possibly a plan D, I am not willing as a  taxpayer to pay for a reservoir. I think it is just another big  expensive government project that people cannot afford. I mean good  grief, it costs $1000 to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in Moscow, people  cannot afford it anymore. In Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a  three or four bedroom house.  Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a  year, our county population is shrinking and native Moscow residents  are being replaced by Californians and others not from here because of  the cost of living and lack of job opportunities. 

If you want  a reservoir, you have to pay for it through private means, not taxes,  which means you have to get a private company like Naylor Farms to do  it. If they can engineer a mining operation, they can engineer digging  a hole and filling it with water. 

I don't think that  conservation is the solution to our problem. I think water levels are  not decreasing because of our consumption rate, but rather because of a  shift in global weather patterns. Even if Moscow residents left town  all today, the water would still run out.  Just look at all the  other aquifers around the world that are also declining. 

Second,  I don't want to leave behind this aquifer water for people. I think it  is nasty, smelly, bad tasting water. We have fresh water springs less  than 50 miles from here, don't you think people of the future, 200-300  years from now would rather be drinking that than the stale water that  corrodes our pipes and smells like sulfur if your water tank isn't over  130 degrees? I know I would. 

If we took two years to build one  mile of pipe, we would get to a fresh healthy water supply in less than  100 years, a good 200 years before our supply ran out.

I think  speculation and research is a good thing, and so is coming up with a  plan B for our water situation. However, asking for money for a water  reservoir with the limited knowledge we have is going to get a big NO  from Moscow property owners which make up most the vote. 

Thinking  realistically, you aren't going to get a reservoir anytime in the near  future with tax dollars. Naylor Farms is more most likely our best  shot.   

I suppose lots of people, and MCA are going  to spend lots of time pushing this idea, some will use scare tactics,  but it in the end, it isn't going to happen. 

Best,

_DJA

Joe Campbell     <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:     Dear       Donovan,

Let  me preface this by saying that I know very little about water; I know  more since last night -- thanks to our wonderful panel! -- but that is  still very little compared to other folks. Here are some brief  thoughts, though.

1/ The kind of area needed for a reservoir is  one thing; the kind of area needed for a mine is another. Why think  that they would coincide? Others can speak to this issue with more  authority, but I remain skeptical that a mine can be easily transformed  into a reservoir.

2/ What I especially liked about last night's  meeting is that we discussed an issue that was not "in our face." Yet  it is an issue that needs to be dealt with soon. The fact is that we  use more water than is being replaced. As long as the water supply is  not endless, it will eventually end. What to do?

A reservoir is  one possible solution. Water conservation is another one. But CAN we  conserve enough water to solve the problem? Shouldn't we also look at  other solutions? We're just beginning this dialogue, I think. (We're  just beginning it as a COMMUNITY. It was clear last night that there  are quite a few folks who have been thinking about these issues for a  while.)

3/ One thing that came across last night is that we are  in a rather unique situation, water-wise. It is possible that there is  a large -- though limited -- body of water that is currently available  to Moscow. We need to think about how we are going to use it and --  until we can provide a way of increasing that amount -- we should plan  to use it wisely.

Naylor farms has plans to use a great deal of  our current supply. Forgetting about the other costs of their  enterprise, it is questionable whether -- short of some long term  solution to our current water problem -- we should invest our water  capital to meet their ends.

4/ I wish Naylor farms would hold a  public forum similar to the one held last night. Which is just to say,  I wish that Naylor farms would give me the feeling that they gave a  rat's -ss about how I and others think about these issues.

I  challenge Naylor farms to approach this problem in a way that  illustrates their concern for the overall community. It is our water  and the supply is limited. If Naylor farms wants to use some of that  supply, then they need to tell us how we might benefit from their use.  So far I have not seen the benefit. Nor have I seen any recognition on  their part that there is a genuine problem here. Currently, there is  just a limited supply of water. We might debate on the amount but that  the supply is limited is not an issue for debate.

Until we can  figure out a way to increase our current supply of water -- through a  reservoir, conservation, or some other means -- it seems irresponsible  to allow Naylor farms access to it for their own personal needs.

Note  that these comments are reflective of my own thoughts, and not those of  any other organization with which I might be affiliated (the members of  which likely know more about these issues than I do).

Best, Joe

----       Donovan Arnold wrote:       

=============
Joe and Bruce,

I  would love to attend your meeting, however, I cannot. You guys really  need to check with me before you schedule these meetings to make sure I  am free, cause you know, I work and go to school and right now I am  also sick. ; )

But my advice is that you work with Naylor Farms  to meet both your goals. Maybe the money raised from mining can be used  to pay for the reservoir. Working with people you have disagreements  with rather than shutting them down all the time might work better to  meet some of your long term goals. 

Is there any reason why the  water used by Naylor Farms cannot be used to fill the reservoir? Is  there any reason why the hole they dig cannot be the reservoir? Is  there any reason why the taxes and fines they pay the county to mine  cannot be used to pay for the project? I think a reservoir on top of a  hill just a mile or town out of town is a perfect place to have one. 

Those are the questions I would ask if I could attend this meeting.       

Best,

_DJA

Joe Campbell wrote:Come  to the meeting, Donovan! Note that the title of the meeting is a  question, not a statement. We're going to discuss the plusses and  minuses and try to help folks reach an informed decision on the matter.

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold wrote:       

=============
Won't  digging a reservoir cause health problems with dust being less then 1.5  miles away from Moscow? And won't it use a lot of water?

Why don't we just have Naylor Farms dig us a hole, take the       clay and dirt away, and use the water to fill the reservoir?

Curious       minds want to know. 

Best,

_DJA

Bruce and Jean       Livingston wrote: Reminder: MCA meeting on whether Moscow should consider       building a water reservoir.

MCA General Public Meeting on Monday Oct.       9 at 1912 Building @ 7p.m.
Water Solutions Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Is Moscow Ready for a       Reservoir?
Panelists: 
Jerry Fairley, Professor of Hydrogeology, U of       Idaho
Dianne French, founder of Palouse Water Conservation       Network
Gary Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor
Steve Robischon, Exec.       Mgr. of Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee
Mark Solomon, Palouse Water       Conservation       Network

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              Donovan writes:

    "In  Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a three or four bedroom  house.  Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year, our county  population is shrinking and native Moscow residents are being replaced  by Californians and others not from here because of the cost of living  and lack of job opportunities."

    If you want to be taken seriously please tell us the sources of  the above information and expand the details:  What  percentage of 3 - 4 BR homes in Boise can be had on a regular mortgage  for $700.00/month?  What is the average cost of a 3 - 4 BR house  in the Boise Metro area?  What is the average mortgage  amount?  What is the average monthly payment?  What is the  average income in Moscow when students are not counted in the  data?  How many Moscow natives were displaced by Californians  beyond those that would have left anyway?  How are these numbers  different for similar sized cities in the west which are islands in  rural ag or forest resource areas?

    Since the issue of water quality and quantity is important     to many on this list, please give the sources  for your information or resign yourself to be regarded once and for all  times as the area's largest but not cleverest fabulist.

    Donovan writes:

    "I  don't think that conservation is the solution to our problem. I think  water levels are not decreasing because of our consumption rate, but  rather because of a shift in global weather patterns. Even if Moscow  residents left town all today, the water would still run out.   Just look at all the other aquifers around the world that are also  declining."

    Let's  see.  The aquifers are declining since they are not being  replenished as quickly worldwide and not because water is being pumped  from them.   Hmmm.   So pumping water from aquifers  has little or no effect on their levels?  Please give some scientific sources  for this amazing statement including sources for data that purport to  show that precipitation is declining globally.  Is it your  contention that if we were to stop pumping groundwater, the levels  would still be falling at the same rate?   Perhaps a solution  to your great knowledge would be a simple Googling on "global aquifers"  and a few minutes reading.

    Since the aquifers are falling for whatever cause or     causes, it seems to me that is all the more reason to conserve.

    After  you Google on "global aquifers," try Googling to discover the problems  with using surface water for urban use and what the project urban use  is over the next few years.

    Without  commenting on your Naylor Farms remarks in depth, it should be asked  that if Naylor Farms cannot even retain an effective attorney  who could correctly fill out a CUP application form or a competent,  believable geologist, is it reasonable to expect that they  could even begin to competently design, finance, and construct a large  privately financed public works project?

    There  is no doubt that the cost to taxpayers for water and many other natural  resources will increase sharply over the next few years.  This  reasons for this rise includes the rise in population, dwindling  resources, and a sharp rise in the long term ecological debt  we have now and continue to accumulate at an accelerating pace.

    The  community has lots of citizens that do not understand the local or  global water resource issue, do not want to understand it, have all  kinds of absurd, ill-defined plans to solve it, and do not want to pay  for its solution.

    Old,  and coming from a childhood in communities where most of the citizens  then faced major problems and worked together, more or  less, try to solve them, I find the cultural shift to wide scale  me-ism a sign that worst times are to come.

    I  am glad that my life expectancy is short so that I won't have to see  the near term ecological catastrophes and the sufferings wrought by  them, and won't have to listen to the lame excuses of those that by  their abysmal ignorance, uninformed opinionating, and selfish inaction  helped bring them about.

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

    -----     Original Message -----     From:     Donovan Arnold 
    To: Joe Campbell 
    Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
    Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:21 PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for     Reservoir?

Joe,