[Vision2020] Abortion and the Bible

Mon Nov 20 17:53:17 PST 2006

Hey Keely, thanks for your response.  I wasn't trying to waltz you into 
making some compromising statement, I was just curious how one who regards 
abortion as the taking of a human life, can help but be opposed to 
punishment in response to it.  I am sure that you have addressed that 
question at some point in the past and apparently I missed it.

Have a cool Tuesday.    -T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To: <tonytime at clearwire.net>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Abortion and the Bible

>I believe you'd have to ask Nick about his response to my postings, and I 
>answered the question pretty clearly, I think, in them both.  You'd like a 
>statement that goes far beyond my absolute belief that abortion is the 
>taking of a human life and, in doing so, adds to it legal penalties that I 
>am not able to absolutely endorse, for reasons I clearly outlined.
>
> Have a great day as well,
>
> keely
>
>
> From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> To: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Abortion and the Bible
> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 12:57:53 -0800
>
> Keely, I understand that you feel personhood begins at conception.  It is 
> further my understanding that Nick feels personhood begins after 25 weeks 
> gestation.  I was confused as it seemed he was aligning himself with your 
> position at the end of a recent posting to you.  If you would, could you 
> clarify:  1)  Do you believe personhood begins at conception?  And if so, 
> how are you able to countenance abortion?
>
> Do have a pleasant week. -T
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> To: <nickgier at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Abortion and the Bible
>
>
>>Nick,
>>
>>I meant the last sentence as a bit of humor, and in re-reading it I see 
>>that
>>it had the opposite effect:  that of artificially, perhaps blithely,
>>dividing people into camps.
>>
>>What I meant was a self-deprecating acknowledgement that "once again" I 
>>make
>>seemingly black-and-white issues a hazy, heathery, gray, a trait that
>>bothers me only when I do it in error, but annoys my Kirk and other 
>>critics
>>incessantly, and I don't fit in easily with one side of the
>>socioreligious-political continuum or the other.  In reality, I absolutely
>>understand that most sane people aren't rooted in one extreme; in an 
>>attempt
>>to poke a little fun at myself, I ended up sounding as if there should be
>>such division.  Not cool, and not especially as relates to our friendship.
>>To both you and Tony, I offer my apologies.  Mea culpa!!
>>
>>As far as the omniscience of a God who "repents and regrets," I freely
>>acknowledge that my understanding is formed less by textual analysis and
>>linguistic nuance than by a faith-understanding of who Yahweh is, an
>>understanding that is not empty of intellectual reason -- my study of
>>Scripture -- but nonetheless fully informed by the Holy Spirit, (as far as
>>can be possible in a being whose earnestness is exceeded only by her moral
>>imperfection).  Still, I only have concerns about the non-omniscience
>>(-presence, -potence) of God when the belief is voiced by evangelical
>>Christians, such as those who embrace "openness theology."  It's not
>>something I could divide over, or break fellowship with because of, but as 
>>a
>>departure from historic Christian thought and doctrine, it is problematic.
>>
>>Your Theology Bluebook is one of the "grab in case of a fire" volumes in 
>>my
>>library, Nick, and I've learned much from you through it as well as on
>>Vision.  We're long overdue for lunch, and I'm grateful that our esteem 
>>for
>>each other isn't built on this or any other issue.  Thanks for your 
>>comments
>>and for giving me the chance to respond!
>>
>>keely
>>
>>
>>From: <nickgier at adelphia.net>
>>To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Abortion and the Bible
>>Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 17:16:00 -0800
>>
>>Dear Keely:
>>
>>As always, I stand in awe of the elegance and clarity of your expression 
>>and
>>your eminently civil way of engaging in argument.
>>
>>I am a little distressed, however, at your final sentence, in which you
>>imply that I will somehow disown you from my "camp."  First, I don't have 
>>a
>>"camp" even though Kirkers want all of their critics to belong to a camp 
>>of
>>intolerants.  Second, I don't disown people because they disagree with me;
>>and neither do I somehow have the power to deny free speech, certainly not
>>to some tough guy down the hill.
>>
>>Your theological acumen turns me on, Keely, but I just want to remind you
>>that the wonderful terms "omnipresence," "omnipotence," and "omniscient" 
>>are
>>not biblical terms.  The attributes of the Christian God have just as much
>>to do with Greek theology as the Bible.  For example, the Hebrew 
>>Scriptures
>>state that Yahweh repented or regretted at least 33 times. Both of these
>>actions make sense only on the basis of incomplete knowledge, so an
>>omniscient being could not repent or regret.
>>
>>If divine repentence and regret are just figures of speech, then it 
>>destroys
>>the dyanamic nature of God that one gets nicely from process theology, 
>>which
>>I embrace.  Process theology is eminently biblical in that it rejects 
>>divine
>>immutability, a Greek attribute unwisely given to a very dynamic biblical
>>God.
>>
>>Yes, I grant that Yahweh appears to be omnipotent, but I, and many others,
>>argue that divine omnipotence undermines the freedom of the will.  I 
>>gifted
>>you a copy of my "Theology Bluebook," and I write much more about the 
>>divine
>>attributes there and at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/attributes.htm.  Divine
>>omnipotence also means that God is the author of evil, as I argue at
>>www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/dp3.htm.
>>
>>On the issue of abortion, you have the most reasonable and tolerant 
>>position
>>of any person I know who claims that the fetus is a person from conception
>>on. Would that your grace and forbearance were found among more abortion
>>opponents.
>>
>>Thanks for the illuminating dialogue,
>>
>>Nick
>>
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