[Vision2020] Tet Offensive

Mon Nov 13 14:08:27 PST 2006

Just curious - what if Clinton had put us in Iraq...would you feel this 
strongly that we should be there or is it just that anything Bush does is 
ok?

Seriously, considering how bad the reception was that Carter got when HE 
went into an area the country did not support and now BUSH is in, I'm just 
wondering where this line gets drawn - at the party line or the 
"humanitarian" line?  And who defines what is "humanitarian help" and when 
does it end?

The old adage about giving a man a fish vs. teaching him to fish comes to 
mind.

J  :]

>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:01:49 -0800
>
>Sunil, It is more likely that Pat and I simply disagree with the point you
>are making than that we are ignorant of it altogether.  We are as aware as
>you of the bitterly divided nature of Iraq's population.  But remember,
>Sunil, the original question that gave birth to the historical example of
>Japan was whether devastating military force is a viable option in 
>defeating
>a very dangerous adversary.  Clearly in the case of Imperial Japan, it WAS.
>For you to refuse to acknowledge that historical reality is to fail to
>engage in a fair-minded dialog.  Of course, because of the divisive nature
>of Iraqi culture, any solution, military or otherwise, is clearly going to
>be a greater challenge.  But why do you see no merit whatsoever in this
>administration's efforts to free this viciously oppressed population?  And
>why have you so little patience for those who would support our leadership
>in that objective?
>
>Curious,    -T
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:35 AM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
>
>
> > Pat,
> >
> > I tried to make this point to you before, and obviously failed.  I tried
> > to
> > make it again to Tony, and it's obvious you still don't see what I'm
> > trying
> > to say this time either, but I'll try again.
> >
> > Japan has a very homogenous population.  Iraq's population has three
> > different competing groups with major fissures.  That means that it is
> > very
> > difficult to find agreement, if for example, one of the groups thinks it
> > can
> > get a better outcome outside of the system we are trying to impose. This
> > is
> > something the government should have considered.  It is the type of
> > subject
> > that should have been part of the discussion in Congress if it was a
> > reason
> > for the invasion.
> >
> > There is no similarity between Japan and Iraq, and wishful thinking and
> > platitudes like "Maybe it can work out' are not good enough.  I think we
> > need more than that when we risk lives and treasure.   We need some
> > practical reason to believe such a policy might work.
> >
> > Since I don't support our government killing Iraqis, I don't support
> > Hussein
> > doing it.  How strange of you to make that suggestion.  Are you 
>suggesting
> > the reason for our intervention was humanitarian?  Why haven't we 
>invaded
> > Sudan?  There's certainly a humanitarian disaster going on there.
> >
> > I don't think we invaded for humanitarian reasons.  Hussein was a 
>butcher
> > from the beginning, yet we supported him.  When he was gassing the 
>Kurds,
> > we
> > tried to blame the Iranians for the use of gas, when they were also
> > victims
> > of the same cruelty.
> >
> > Sunil
> >
> >
> >>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:51:59 -0800
> >>
> >>I can't think of one in Asia either before Japan but they are now.
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:06 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >>
> >>
> >>Yes, blindingly brilliant, once I remembered that the Confederacy was 
>made
> >>up of a mixture of Sunni Arabs, Shiite Arabs, and Kurds, who had once
> >>lived
> >>under the US Constitution.  That was why we were able to have them 
>accept
> >>the outcome of the Civil War.
> >>
> >>Now, can you point to a single place in the Middle East where democracy
> >>was
> >>imposed by a foreign invader?  You seem to be saying that is the reason
> >>for
> >>our illegal invasion of Iraq.  If that was the reason, why was that not
> >>part
> >>of a national debate before the invasion?  Shouldn't we have some
> >>assessment
> >>of whether it's been done before, and whether it's possible now?
> >>
> >>I don't expect you to answer that question, but if you're going to 
>accuse
> >>me
> >>of clouding the issue, you should be honest enough to try.  Suprise me,
> >>won't you?
> >>
> >>And since you also talk of uneducated third worlders in a tone that at
> >>best
> >>is patronizing and at worst racist (your use of the word 'raghead' 
>cements
> >>that view), don't you remember that supporters of the war claimed that
> >>transformation of Iraq would be easy because of its highly-educated
> >>population?
> >>
> >>Sunil
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> >> >To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >> >Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:47:19 -0800
> >> >
> >> >Thank you Sunil.  I thought that particular post of mine was
> >> >particularly
> >> >brilliant.  Kind of you to acknowledge that.
> >> >
> >> >Best,  -T
> >>
> >>
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