[Vision2020] BINGO?? That's the last straw!!

Tony tonytime at clearwire.net
Mon Nov 13 07:30:09 PST 2006


Oh Keely, pray I may never take up bingo.  I'm into a little more excitement 
than that.  As for how Christ appears, Hell, I have no idea.  I don't 
presume to have an answer to such unanswerable questions.  For all I know, 
Christ might have been gay or African American - or, Father forbid..... a 
LIBERAL!!

Up to a little Monday morning mischief,  -T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To: <tonytime at clearwire.net>; <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)


> It's difficult to dialogue seriously with a man who uses the term 
> "murderous ragheads" to describe even the most violent Muslim extremist. 
> Then again, in the Jingoist Bingo Hall, or wherever it is that Tony's 
> buddies congregate, the idea that Christ undoubtedly looked more like them 
> than he did Tony is probably the most difficult-to-comprehend lesson in 
> civics they're likely ever to undertake.
>
> keely
>
>
> From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:29:13 -0800
>
> J and Sunil,
>
> Hope you two don't mind if I combine posts in a nefarious attempt to
> circumvent the four a day rule...
>
> J, I don't think it's fair to say we have failed in Iraq.  the situation 
> is
> of course as volatile as a reasonable person would expect given the region
> and its history.  But does that mean that the process of democratization 
> is
> automatically doomed to failure?  Is not your conviction in that regard at
> risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophesy?  Dare to hope, J.
>
> And Sunil, yes, the middle east is not known for budding democracies- 
> until
> now, that is.  But does that not mean we should not have tried to 
> introduce
> them to such a system?  Our system was unparallel at its inception as 
> well,
> and look what a crowning glory it has proven to be historically.
>
> J, our response to 911 immoral and immature?  Wow.  Tell it to the 
> victim's
> families.
>
> Sunil, my point, which you surely recognize, was that a rogue state can be
> transformed into a cooperating member of the civilized community as the
> south was during our civil war, Japan was after WW11, and as Iraq might
> become if we don't keep vacillating in our objectives.  Just because
> something has not been done previously does not ensure that it can never 
> be
> accomplished Sunil.  To suggest otherwise would be to deny the invention 
> of
> the automobile, the wheel itself, or our system of government.  Dare to
> hope, Sunil.  I submit that your determination that all those living in 
> the
> middle east are forever condemned to murder one another willy-nilly, is
> indeed the true racism.  My use of the term raghead is meant to apply to 
> the
> glazed eyed, bomb wielding, seventh century sociopaths that so predominate
> in that culture.  You are under no obligation to agree with me.  Isn't
> freedom great?
>
> And finally, J:  If you seriously think that Bush and company knew ahead 
> of
> time about Osama Bin Raghead's plans to incinerate 3 thousand of your
> countrymen, and deliberately let it happen to justify a personal vendetta,
> then I'm afraid I must conclude that further dialog with you would be
> pointless unless you are willing to adjust your medication.
>
> Have a wonderful Sunday in this, the greatest nation on God's green Earth.
>
> Cordially yours,  -T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
>
>
> > TonKnee says:
> >
> > "Distasteful, yes, but is failure an option when dealing with these
> > murderous ragheads"
> >
> > Are we failing, though?  And just who tis it we are failing?  To what
> > degree?
> >
> > Is it failing when we decide we never should have been in Iraq, never
> > should
> > have begun the operation "Iraqi Freedom", never should have interfered
> > with
> > the way another country runs itself - and pull our people out of a bad
> > situation and bring them home?  Or tis the failure to allow thousands
> more
> > of OUR people to die for a group of people's morally indignant and
> > immature
> > response to a situation that happed in 1990?  No, I don't mean the Iraqi
> > people, I mean Bush and his people.
> >
> > His daddy got his pants pulled down and his ass shown to the world and
> Jr.
> > is going to prove to the world "you can't do that to my daddy and get
> away
> > with it!"  I mean, isn't this really what this is all about?  He has 
> > been
> > planning this thing since he took office - all he, Jr., was looking for
> > was
> > an opportunity.
> >
> > There is proof that Bush, et al KNEW about 9/11 BEFORE it happened...and
> > did
> > nothing to stop it or even warn our country that eminent risk/danger was
> > at
> > hand.  Is that possibly because he wanted the people on his side when he
> > attacked Iraq and the best way to cement that is by allowing some
> > sacrificial "lambs" to be killed?  What's that old saying..."some have 
> > to
> > die so many will live"?  Is that what Bush's motto truly is?  He
> certainly
> > seems to be living it out, IMHO.
> >
> > You want to support Bush - go for it.  But don't get on the rest of us
> who
> > say the thousands that died in 9/11 and the thousands that have died
> since
> > then is enough.  We have NOTHING to gain by continuing this charade and
> > everything to gain when we bring our people home.   We have no right
> under
> > any guise to "assert our will" either long distance or short.  If those
> > people, like the people in other countries, want to live under
> > dictatorship
> > and hardship, shouldn't we allow that to happen?  Who says OUR way of
> > running things could/would work for them anyway?  It certainly has
> > problems
> > for us - why force that onto another country?
> >
> > Why not spend the billions of dollars being wasted on the Iraq War and
> > shore
> > up OUR country, OUR people, OUR system of living?  Why must we be the
> > leaders that continue to be the big bully and say "Do it our way or 
> > else"
> > and in reality gain NOTHING for it?
> >
> > I don't view it as a failure for our troops and our government to get 
> > out
> > of
> > Iraq - I view it as a people recognizing they were in a situation they
> had
> > no business being in and knew when to leave.  We accomplished what we
> > sought
> > to do - Sadam is not only out, but scheduled for execution.  The WMD,
> > though
> > never a REAL threat, are nowhere to be found and therefore out of
> > commission.  So, bring our troops home and let's get on with getting our
> > country back on the road of being the best it can be.
> >
> >
> > J  :]
> >
> > P.S.  IF you respond to this ToKnee - I am asking you to be respectful
> and
> > for once a gentleman about it.  I have not insulted you or your
> > intelligence...it'd be a nice change if you'd take the same tact when
> > dealing with people.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> >>To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:16:01 -0800
> >>
> >>Paul, how is your morning?  Coooold up there I'll bet.  Yeah, you were
> >>generalizing - it's cool though - don't we all?  I've always wanted to
> >>armchair generalize... (snicker snicker)
> >>
> >>I just feel that when dealing with a clearly sociopathic and widespread
> >>enemy, we are unfortunately going to find ourselves in a position of
> >>utilizing unconventional methods in order to prevail.  Distasteful, yes,
> >>but
> >>is failure an option when dealing with these murderous ragheads?  What
> >>would
> >>General Washington have advised?  General Grant or Sherman?  General Mac
> >>Arthur or Patton?  Or perhaps Abe Lincoln, who presided over our
> country's
> >>most horrific bloodshed in order to achieve a long term peace?
> >>
> >>Have we lost the will to assert our strength for the long term benefit 
> >>of
> >>mankind on Earth?  Do we so distrust ourselves and this grand 
> >>experiment?
> >>Does our untethered heart find itself blown hither and yon by an
> >>unpredictable and gusty political wind?  Are we so fickle as to desert
> >>those
> >>who led us courageously through the smoke after 911?
> >>
> >>As for Iraq, Paul, I don't think the question of Hussein's involvement
> >>with
> >>terrorists can be so cavalierly dismissed.  Nor do I think Bush & 
> >>company
> >>should be slow roasted for acting on intelligence that the democrats
> >>themselves concluded was very troubling.  It was a bi-partisan decision
> to
> >>pursue Saddam, after all.  And clear purpose?  What about freedom?
> >>Democracy?  The rule of law?  Granted, Paul, such concepts are foreign 
> >>to
> >>uneducated, third worlders, but should ignorance deprive them of the
> >>opportunity to live as their God intended,  cooperating with one another
> >>and
> >>progressing with the bulk of the world in relative peace and prosperity?
> >>
> >>Your spot on Paul, that trying to save lives and save our economy are
> both
> >>patriotic values.  And I accept from the tone of your posts that you are
> >>sincere in that wish but simply find other solutions more palatable.  I
> >>respect you for that and find your reasoned approach and gracious 
> >>posture
> >>during this dialog to be refreshing as it contrasts with that of some on
> >>the
> >>left.
> >>
> >>Cordially,   -Tony
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 8:29 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >>
> >>
> >> > Tony,
> >> >
> >> > You're right, you never said "willing to kill anyone and everyone". 
> >> > I
> >> > was generalizing.  You did appear to be arguing that we were being 
> >> > too
> >> > soft when we didn't immediately bomb a mosque that had a known
> >> > terrorist
> >> > in it.  I remember other times that you have indicated that liberals
> >> > are
> >> > weak for not being more aggressive in this war.
> >> >
> >> > The people that you call either "muddle headed" or "(sharing) the
> goals
> >> > of America's enemies" are, in my view, simply trying to put the
> country
> >> > back on course.  It has been shown that Iraq had nothing to do with
> >> > 9/11, nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, and nothing to do with WMDs.  So
> why
> >> > sink a billion dollars a day into a war that should by all rights
> never
> >> > have been started, but which is now causing as much violence as it
> >> > hoped
> >> > to stop?  Why expose our troops to death and destruction when there 
> >> > is
> >> > no clear purpose in mind?
> >> >
> >> > Trying to save lives and save our economy are both patriotic values.
> I
> >> > think many of these people deserve more respect than that.
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> >
> >> > Tony wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Paul, you misunderstand.  I do not take the position that ALL
> liberals
> >> >> are disloyal and share the goals of America's enemies, just that the
> >> >> bulk of them do.  Some are simply too muddle headed in their
> >> >> thinking.  This does not make them the enemy, but merely to be 
> >> >> pitied
> >> >> as an unintentional part of the problem.
> >> >>
> >> >> You may wish to re-read my post.  I never said that conservatives 
> >> >> are
> >> >> "willing to kill anyone and everyone."  What I clearly said was that
> >> >> they have the ability to be realistic and recognize that sometimes
> one
> >> >> must sacrifice a few to save many.  Is this so complicated?
> >> >>
> >> >> If one's choice to avoid collateral damage at all costs results in
> the
> >> >> loss of an even greater number of his own countryman, can he claim 
> >> >> to
> >> >> be either wise OR strong?
> >> >>
> >> >> Pragmatically yours,      -T
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"
> >> >> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 10:01 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Your observation about the coverage of the mosque in Fallujah 
> >> >>>> where
> >> >>>> Al-Zar
> >> >>>> punk-boy was hiding was also correct.  We should have ignored the
> >> >>>> collaborating subversives in our media and allowed the generals to
> >> >>>> blast the
> >> >>>> bastard, mosque and all, right into Allah's lap.  This only sounds
> >> >>>> bad to
> >> >>>> those who haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to achieve
> >> >>>> victory or
> >> >>>> the sense to defer to those who do.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> I'm tired of these two basic assertions that I keep seeing.  One is
> >>that
> >> >>> the "liberals" are somehow unloyal and unamerican, as you seem to 
> >> >>> be
> >> >>> implying here by calling them "collaborating subversives in our
> >>media".
> >> >>> The other is that a lack of total willingness to kill anyone and
> >> >>> everyone is some form of weakness, as you seem to imply when you 
> >> >>> say
> >> >>> that liberals "haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to
> achieve
> >> >>> victory or the sense to defer to those who do".
> >> >>>
> >> >>> We will never have a reasonable debate here if these issues are not
> >> >>> addressed, in my opinion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> To start with, I will claim that many of the "liberals" care as
> >> >>> deeply
> >> >>> about their country as you do.  I will also claim that the ability
> to
> >> >>> show mercy or to abstain from killing from a position of strength 
> >> >>> is
> >> >>> a
> >> >>> sign of power, not weakness.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Paul
> >> >>>
> >> >>> =======================================================
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
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