[Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sun Nov 12 22:23:22 PST 2006
Wow! Cool - thanks for sharing that site. I have always maintained Jesus
was dark skinned and since he as a Nazarene, it only stands to reason he
would be ANYthing but white or Caucasian in stature or make-up. Fact is,
there are depictions of him wearing a "rag" while moving around the areas he
traveled, too - which, again, makes sence considering the area is
desert-like and hot.
J :]
>From: "Ellen Roskovich" <gussie443 at hotmail.com>
>To: kjajmix1 at msn.com, tonytime at clearwire.net, privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:34:40 -0800
>
>
>
>For Tony and his buddies:
>http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/25/face.jesus/index.html
>
>Ellen A. Roskovich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>To: tonytime at clearwire.net, privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:17:42 -0800
> >It's difficult to dialogue seriously with a man who uses the term
> >"murderous ragheads" to describe even the most violent Muslim
> >extremist. Then again, in the Jingoist Bingo Hall, or wherever it
> >is that Tony's buddies congregate, the idea that Christ undoubtedly
> >looked more like them than he did Tony is probably the most
> >difficult-to-comprehend lesson in civics they're likely ever to
> >undertake.
> >
> >keely
> >
> >
> >From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> >To: "J
>Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
> >Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:29:13 -0800
> >
> >J and Sunil,
> >
> >Hope you two don't mind if I combine posts in a nefarious attempt to
> >circumvent the four a day rule...
> >
> >J, I don't think it's fair to say we have failed in Iraq. the
> >situation is
> >of course as volatile as a reasonable person would expect given the
> >region
> >and its history. But does that mean that the process of
> >democratization is
> >automatically doomed to failure? Is not your conviction in that
> >regard at
> >risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophesy? Dare to hope, J.
> >
> >And Sunil, yes, the middle east is not known for budding
>
> >democracies- until
> >now, that is. But does that not mean we should not have tried to
> >introduce
> >them to such a system? Our system was unparallel at its inception
> >as well,
> >and look what a crowning glory it has proven to be historically.
> >
> >J, our response to 911 immoral and immature? Wow. Tell it to the
> >victim's
> >families.
> >
> >Sunil, my point, which you surely recognize, was that a rogue state
> >can be
> >transformed into a cooperating member of the civilized community as
> >the
> >south was during our civil war, Japan was after WW11, and as Iraq
> >might
> >become if we don't keep vacillating in our objectives. Just because
> >something has not been done previously does not ensure that it can
> >never
>be
> >accomplished Sunil. To suggest otherwise would be to deny the
> >invention of
> >the automobile, the wheel itself, or our system of government. Dare
> >to
> >hope, Sunil. I submit that your determination that all those living
> >in the
> >middle east are forever condemned to murder one another willy-nilly,
> >is
> >indeed the true racism. My use of the term raghead is meant to
> >apply to the
> >glazed eyed, bomb wielding, seventh century sociopaths that so
> >predominate
> >in that culture. You are under no obligation to agree with me.
> >Isn't
> >freedom great?
> >
> >And finally, J: If you seriously think that Bush and company knew
> >ahead of
> >time about Osama Bin Raghead's plans to incinerate 3 thousand of
>
> >your
> >countrymen, and deliberately let it happen to justify a personal
> >vendetta,
> >then I'm afraid I must conclude that further dialog with you would
> >be
> >pointless unless you are willing to adjust your medication.
> >
> >Have a wonderful Sunday in this, the greatest nation on God's green
> >Earth.
> >
> >Cordially yours, -T
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:46 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
> >
> >
> > > TonKnee says:
> > >
> > > "Distasteful, yes, but is failure an option when dealing with
> >these
> > > murderous ragheads"
> > >
> > > Are we failing, though? And just who tis it we
>are failing? To
> >what
> > > degree?
> > >
> > > Is it failing when we decide we never should have been in Iraq,
> >never
> > > should
> > > have begun the operation "Iraqi Freedom", never should have
> >interfered
> > > with
> > > the way another country runs itself - and pull our people out of
> >a bad
> > > situation and bring them home? Or tis the failure to allow
> >thousands more
> > > of OUR people to die for a group of people's morally indignant
> >and
> > > immature
> > > response to a situation that happed in 1990? No, I don't mean
> >the Iraqi
> > > people, I mean Bush and his people.
> > >
> > > His daddy got his pants pulled down and his ass shown to the
> >world and Jr.
> > > is going to prove to
>the world "you can't do that to my daddy and
> >get away
> > > with it!" I mean, isn't this really what this is all about? He
> >has been
> > > planning this thing since he took office - all he, Jr., was
> >looking for
> > > was
> > > an opportunity.
> > >
> > > There is proof that Bush, et al KNEW about 9/11 BEFORE it
> >happened...and
> > > did
> > > nothing to stop it or even warn our country that eminent
> >risk/danger was
> > > at
> > > hand. Is that possibly because he wanted the people on his side
> >when he
> > > attacked Iraq and the best way to cement that is by allowing some
> > > sacrificial "lambs" to be killed? What's that old saying..."some
> >have to
> > > die so many will live"? Is that what
>Bush's motto truly is? He
> >certainly
> > > seems to be living it out, IMHO.
> > >
> > > You want to support Bush - go for it. But don't get on the rest
> >of us who
> > > say the thousands that died in 9/11 and the thousands that have
> >died since
> > > then is enough. We have NOTHING to gain by continuing this
> >charade and
> > > everything to gain when we bring our people home. We have no
> >right under
> > > any guise to "assert our will" either long distance or short. If
> >those
> > > people, like the people in other countries, want to live under
> > > dictatorship
> > > and hardship, shouldn't we allow that to happen? Who says OUR
> >way of
> > > running things could/would work for them
>anyway? It certainly
> >has
> > > problems
> > > for us - why force that onto another country?
> > >
> > > Why not spend the billions of dollars being wasted on the Iraq
> >War and
> > > shore
> > > up OUR country, OUR people, OUR system of living? Why must we be
> >the
> > > leaders that continue to be the big bully and say "Do it our way
> >or else"
> > > and in reality gain NOTHING for it?
> > >
> > > I don't view it as a failure for our troops and our government to
> >get out
> > > of
> > > Iraq - I view it as a people recognizing they were in a situation
> >they had
> > > no business being in and knew when to leave. We accomplished
> >what we
> > > sought
> > > to do - Sadam is not only out, but scheduled for
>execution. The
> >WMD,
> > > though
> > > never a REAL threat, are nowhere to be found and therefore out of
> > > commission. So, bring our troops home and let's get on with
> >getting our
> > > country back on the road of being the best it can be.
> > >
> > >
> > > J :]
> > >
> > > P.S. IF you respond to this ToKnee - I am asking you to be
> >respectful and
> > > for once a gentleman about it. I have not insulted you or your
> > > intelligence...it'd be a nice change if you'd take the same tact
> >when
> > > dealing with people.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> > >>To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >
> >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> > >>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:16:01 -0800
> > >>
> > >>Paul, how is your morning? Coooold up there I'll bet. Yeah, you
> >were
> > >>generalizing - it's cool though - don't we all? I've always
> >wanted to
> > >>armchair generalize... (snicker snicker)
> > >>
> > >>I just feel that when dealing with a clearly sociopathic and
> >widespread
> > >>enemy, we are unfortunately going to find ourselves in a position
> >of
> > >>utilizing unconventional methods in order to prevail.
> >Distasteful, yes,
> > >>but
> > >>is failure an option when dealing with these murderous ragheads?
> >What
> >
> >>would
> > >>General Washington have advised? General Grant or Sherman?
> >General Mac
> > >>Arthur or Patton? Or perhaps Abe Lincoln, who presided over our
> >country's
> > >>most horrific bloodshed in order to achieve a long term peace?
> > >>
> > >>Have we lost the will to assert our strength for the long term
> >benefit of
> > >>mankind on Earth? Do we so distrust ourselves and this grand
> >experiment?
> > >>Does our untethered heart find itself blown hither and yon by an
> > >>unpredictable and gusty political wind? Are we so fickle as to
> >desert
> > >>those
> > >>who led us courageously through the smoke after 911?
> > >>
> > >>As for Iraq, Paul, I don't think the question of
>Hussein's
> >involvement
> > >>with
> > >>terrorists can be so cavalierly dismissed. Nor do I think Bush &
> >company
> > >>should be slow roasted for acting on intelligence that the
> >democrats
> > >>themselves concluded was very troubling. It was a bi-partisan
> >decision to
> > >>pursue Saddam, after all. And clear purpose? What about
> >freedom?
> > >>Democracy? The rule of law? Granted, Paul, such concepts are
> >foreign to
> > >>uneducated, third worlders, but should ignorance deprive them of
> >the
> > >>opportunity to live as their God intended, cooperating with one
> >another
> > >>and
> > >>progressing with the bulk of the world in relative peace and
>
> >prosperity?
> > >>
> > >>Your spot on Paul, that trying to save lives and save our economy
> >are both
> > >>patriotic values. And I accept from the tone of your posts that
> >you are
> > >>sincere in that wish but simply find other solutions more
> >palatable. I
> > >>respect you for that and find your reasoned approach and gracious
> >posture
> > >>during this dialog to be refreshing as it contrasts with that of
> >some on
> > >>the
> > >>left.
> > >>
> > >>Cordially, -Tony
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > >>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >>Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 8:29 PM
> > >>Subject: Re:
>[Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Tony,
> > >> >
> > >> > You're right, you never said "willing to kill anyone and
> >everyone". I
> > >> > was generalizing. You did appear to be arguing that we were
> >being too
> > >> > soft when we didn't immediately bomb a mosque that had a known
> > >> > terrorist
> > >> > in it. I remember other times that you have indicated that
> >liberals
> > >> > are
> > >> > weak for not being more aggressive in this war.
> > >> >
> > >> > The people that you call either "muddle headed" or "(sharing)
> >the goals
> > >> > of America's enemies" are, in my view, simply trying to put
> >the country
> > >>
> > back on course. It has been shown that Iraq had nothing to do
> >with
> > >> > 9/11, nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, and nothing to do with
> >WMDs. So why
> > >> > sink a billion dollars a day into a war that should by all
> >rights never
> > >> > have been started, but which is now causing as much violence
> >as it
> > >> > hoped
> > >> > to stop? Why expose our troops to death and destruction when
> >there is
> > >> > no clear purpose in mind?
> > >> >
> > >> > Trying to save lives and save our economy are both patriotic
> >values. I
> > >> > think many of these people deserve more respect than that.
> > >> >
> > >> > Paul
> > >> >
> > >> >
>Tony wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Paul, you misunderstand. I do not take the position that ALL
> >liberals
> > >> >> are disloyal and share the goals of America's enemies, just
> >that the
> > >> >> bulk of them do. Some are simply too muddle headed in their
> > >> >> thinking. This does not make them the enemy, but merely to
> >be pitied
> > >> >> as an unintentional part of the problem.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> You may wish to re-read my post. I never said that
> >conservatives are
> > >> >> "willing to kill anyone and everyone." What I clearly said
> >was that
> > >> >> they have the ability to be realistic and recognize that
> >sometimes one
> >
> >> >> must sacrifice a few to save many. Is this so complicated?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If one's choice to avoid collateral damage at all costs
> >results in the
> > >> >> loss of an even greater number of his own countryman, can he
> >claim to
> > >> >> be either wise OR strong?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Pragmatically yours, -T
> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"
> > >> >> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > >> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 10:01 AM
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >>>
> > >> >>>> Your observation about the coverage of the mosque in
> >Fallujah where
> > >> >>>> Al-Zar
> > >> >>>> punk-boy was hiding was also correct. We should have
> >ignored the
> > >> >>>> collaborating subversives in our media and allowed the
> >generals to
> > >> >>>> blast the
> > >> >>>> bastard, mosque and all, right into Allah's lap. This only
> >sounds
> > >> >>>> bad to
> > >> >>>> those who haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to
> >achieve
> > >> >>>> victory or
> > >> >>>> the sense to defer to those who do.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> >
> >> >>> I'm tired of these two basic assertions that I keep seeing.
> >One is
> > >>that
> > >> >>> the "liberals" are somehow unloyal and unamerican, as you
> >seem to be
> > >> >>> implying here by calling them "collaborating subversives in
> >our
> > >>media".
> > >> >>> The other is that a lack of total willingness to kill anyone
> >and
> > >> >>> everyone is some form of weakness, as you seem to imply when
> >you say
> > >> >>> that liberals "haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable
> >to achieve
> > >> >>> victory or the sense to defer to those who do".
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> We will never have a reasonable debate here if these issues
> >are
>not
> > >> >>> addressed, in my opinion.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> To start with, I will claim that many of the "liberals" care
> >as
> > >> >>> deeply
> > >> >>> about their country as you do. I will also claim that the
> >ability to
> > >> >>> show mercy or to abstain from killing from a position of
> >strength is
> > >> >>> a
> > >> >>> sign of power, not weakness.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Paul
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> =======================================================
> > >> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >
> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
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> > >>
> > >>
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> > >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> > >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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