[Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)

J Ford privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sun Nov 12 22:15:58 PST 2006


Why do you continue to jump to those kind of conclusions?  Where in all that 
Sunil has EVER written, does he make anything CLOSE to a statement like 
that?

Jeez...it seems like some people are absolutely out for a fight even when 
there is none to be had.



J  :]





>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:53:50 -0800
>
>So, you think it was OK for Saddam to shred people??
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 12:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
>
>
>Again, Tony, was there a national discussion over this 'democratization'
>project?  No.
>
>I don't think we have the right to impose governments on others.  I think
>it's the height of arrogance.  It's not for us to decide to attack states
>that have done nothing to us.
>
>I also think our experience was self-created.  We didn't invent it, but we
>thought it through without its imposition by someone else.  This is a
>crucial difference, not to be tossed aside.
>
>I have no intent to have people in the middle east left to murder each
>other, and it's dishonest of you to make that charge.  But I don't believe
>we have the right to attack and bomb other nations at will under the guise
>of shaping their states.  And if that were our goal in Iraq, we wouldn't be
>builiding long-term bases and the biggest embassy of all.
>
>'Raghead' is a racist term.  I know this the hard way.  Don't make excuses
>for using it.  I've heard people explain their use of the word 'nigger,' 
>and
>I recognize those excuses as bullshit.  I don't know you, and I'm not going
>to say you're racist, Tony.  But you will go a long way in avoiding that
>label if you don't use a term like that.  Maybe it's a term you've used
>thoughtlessly.  I urge you to think about it.
>
>Sunil
>
>
> >From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> >To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
> >Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:29:13 -0800
> >
> >J and Sunil,
> >
> >Hope you two don't mind if I combine posts in a nefarious attempt to
> >circumvent the four a day rule...
> >
> >J, I don't think it's fair to say we have failed in Iraq.  the situation 
>is
> >of course as volatile as a reasonable person would expect given the 
>region
> >and its history.  But does that mean that the process of democratization 
>is
> >automatically doomed to failure?  Is not your conviction in that regard 
>at
> >risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophesy?  Dare to hope, J.
> >
> >And Sunil, yes, the middle east is not known for budding democracies- 
>until
> >now, that is.  But does that not mean we should not have tried to 
>introduce
> >them to such a system?  Our system was unparallel at its inception as 
>well,
> >and look what a crowning glory it has proven to be historically.
> >
> >J, our response to 911 immoral and immature?  Wow.  Tell it to the 
>victim's
> >families.
> >
> >Sunil, my point, which you surely recognize, was that a rogue state can 
>be
> >transformed into a cooperating member of the civilized community as the
> >south was during our civil war, Japan was after WW11, and as Iraq might
> >become if we don't keep vacillating in our objectives.  Just because
> >something has not been done previously does not ensure that it can never 
>be
> >accomplished Sunil.  To suggest otherwise would be to deny the invention 
>of
> >the automobile, the wheel itself, or our system of government.  Dare to
> >hope, Sunil.  I submit that your determination that all those living in 
>the
> >middle east are forever condemned to murder one another willy-nilly, is
> >indeed the true racism.  My use of the term raghead is meant to apply to
> >the
> >glazed eyed, bomb wielding, seventh century sociopaths that so 
>predominate
> >in that culture.  You are under no obligation to agree with me.  Isn't
> >freedom great?
> >
> >And finally, J:  If you seriously think that Bush and company knew ahead 
>of
> >time about Osama Bin Raghead's plans to incinerate 3 thousand of your
> >countrymen, and deliberately let it happen to justify a personal 
>vendetta,
> >then I'm afraid I must conclude that further dialog with you would be
> >pointless unless you are willing to adjust your medication.
> >
> >Have a wonderful Sunday in this, the greatest nation on God's green 
>Earth.
> >
> >Cordially yours,  -T
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:46 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
> >
> >
> > > TonKnee says:
> > >
> > > "Distasteful, yes, but is failure an option when dealing with these
> > > murderous ragheads"
> > >
> > > Are we failing, though?  And just who tis it we are failing?  To what
> > > degree?
> > >
> > > Is it failing when we decide we never should have been in Iraq, never
> > > should
> > > have begun the operation "Iraqi Freedom", never should have interfered
> > > with
> > > the way another country runs itself - and pull our people out of a bad
> > > situation and bring them home?  Or tis the failure to allow thousands
> >more
> > > of OUR people to die for a group of people's morally indignant and
> > > immature
> > > response to a situation that happed in 1990?  No, I don't mean the 
>Iraqi
> > > people, I mean Bush and his people.
> > >
> > > His daddy got his pants pulled down and his ass shown to the world and
> >Jr.
> > > is going to prove to the world "you can't do that to my daddy and get
> >away
> > > with it!"  I mean, isn't this really what this is all about?  He has
> >been
> > > planning this thing since he took office - all he, Jr., was looking 
>for
> > > was
> > > an opportunity.
> > >
> > > There is proof that Bush, et al KNEW about 9/11 BEFORE it 
>happened...and
> > > did
> > > nothing to stop it or even warn our country that eminent risk/danger 
>was
> > > at
> > > hand.  Is that possibly because he wanted the people on his side when 
>he
> > > attacked Iraq and the best way to cement that is by allowing some
> > > sacrificial "lambs" to be killed?  What's that old saying..."some have
> >to
> > > die so many will live"?  Is that what Bush's motto truly is?  He
> >certainly
> > > seems to be living it out, IMHO.
> > >
> > > You want to support Bush - go for it.  But don't get on the rest of us
> >who
> > > say the thousands that died in 9/11 and the thousands that have died
> >since
> > > then is enough.  We have NOTHING to gain by continuing this charade 
>and
> > > everything to gain when we bring our people home.   We have no right
> >under
> > > any guise to "assert our will" either long distance or short.  If 
>those
> > > people, like the people in other countries, want to live under
> > > dictatorship
> > > and hardship, shouldn't we allow that to happen?  Who says OUR way of
> > > running things could/would work for them anyway?  It certainly has
> > > problems
> > > for us - why force that onto another country?
> > >
> > > Why not spend the billions of dollars being wasted on the Iraq War and
> > > shore
> > > up OUR country, OUR people, OUR system of living?  Why must we be the
> > > leaders that continue to be the big bully and say "Do it our way or
> >else"
> > > and in reality gain NOTHING for it?
> > >
> > > I don't view it as a failure for our troops and our government to get
> >out
> > > of
> > > Iraq - I view it as a people recognizing they were in a situation they
> >had
> > > no business being in and knew when to leave.  We accomplished what we
> > > sought
> > > to do - Sadam is not only out, but scheduled for execution.  The WMD,
> > > though
> > > never a REAL threat, are nowhere to be found and therefore out of
> > > commission.  So, bring our troops home and let's get on with getting 
>our
> > > country back on the road of being the best it can be.
> > >
> > >
> > > J  :]
> > >
> > > P.S.  IF you respond to this ToKnee - I am asking you to be respectful
> >and
> > > for once a gentleman about it.  I have not insulted you or your
> > > intelligence...it'd be a nice change if you'd take the same tact when
> > > dealing with people.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> > >>To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> > >>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:16:01 -0800
> > >>
> > >>Paul, how is your morning?  Coooold up there I'll bet.  Yeah, you were
> > >>generalizing - it's cool though - don't we all?  I've always wanted to
> > >>armchair generalize... (snicker snicker)
> > >>
> > >>I just feel that when dealing with a clearly sociopathic and 
>widespread
> > >>enemy, we are unfortunately going to find ourselves in a position of
> > >>utilizing unconventional methods in order to prevail.  Distasteful, 
>yes,
> > >>but
> > >>is failure an option when dealing with these murderous ragheads?  What
> > >>would
> > >>General Washington have advised?  General Grant or Sherman?  General 
>Mac
> > >>Arthur or Patton?  Or perhaps Abe Lincoln, who presided over our
> >country's
> > >>most horrific bloodshed in order to achieve a long term peace?
> > >>
> > >>Have we lost the will to assert our strength for the long term benefit
> >of
> > >>mankind on Earth?  Do we so distrust ourselves and this grand
> >experiment?
> > >>Does our untethered heart find itself blown hither and yon by an
> > >>unpredictable and gusty political wind?  Are we so fickle as to desert
> > >>those
> > >>who led us courageously through the smoke after 911?
> > >>
> > >>As for Iraq, Paul, I don't think the question of Hussein's involvement
> > >>with
> > >>terrorists can be so cavalierly dismissed.  Nor do I think Bush &
> >company
> > >>should be slow roasted for acting on intelligence that the democrats
> > >>themselves concluded was very troubling.  It was a bi-partisan 
>decision
> >to
> > >>pursue Saddam, after all.  And clear purpose?  What about freedom?
> > >>Democracy?  The rule of law?  Granted, Paul, such concepts are foreign
> >to
> > >>uneducated, third worlders, but should ignorance deprive them of the
> > >>opportunity to live as their God intended,  cooperating with one 
>another
> > >>and
> > >>progressing with the bulk of the world in relative peace and 
>prosperity?
> > >>
> > >>Your spot on Paul, that trying to save lives and save our economy are
> >both
> > >>patriotic values.  And I accept from the tone of your posts that you 
>are
> > >>sincere in that wish but simply find other solutions more palatable.  
>I
> > >>respect you for that and find your reasoned approach and gracious
> >posture
> > >>during this dialog to be refreshing as it contrasts with that of some 
>on
> > >>the
> > >>left.
> > >>
> > >>Cordially,   -Tony
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > >>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >>Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 8:29 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Tony,
> > >> >
> > >> > You're right, you never said "willing to kill anyone and everyone".
> >I
> > >> > was generalizing.  You did appear to be arguing that we were being
> >too
> > >> > soft when we didn't immediately bomb a mosque that had a known
> > >> > terrorist
> > >> > in it.  I remember other times that you have indicated that 
>liberals
> > >> > are
> > >> > weak for not being more aggressive in this war.
> > >> >
> > >> > The people that you call either "muddle headed" or "(sharing) the
> >goals
> > >> > of America's enemies" are, in my view, simply trying to put the
> >country
> > >> > back on course.  It has been shown that Iraq had nothing to do with
> > >> > 9/11, nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, and nothing to do with WMDs.  So
> >why
> > >> > sink a billion dollars a day into a war that should by all rights
> >never
> > >> > have been started, but which is now causing as much violence as it
> > >> > hoped
> > >> > to stop?  Why expose our troops to death and destruction when there
> >is
> > >> > no clear purpose in mind?
> > >> >
> > >> > Trying to save lives and save our economy are both patriotic 
>values.
> >I
> > >> > think many of these people deserve more respect than that.
> > >> >
> > >> > Paul
> > >> >
> > >> > Tony wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Paul, you misunderstand.  I do not take the position that ALL
> >liberals
> > >> >> are disloyal and share the goals of America's enemies, just that 
>the
> > >> >> bulk of them do.  Some are simply too muddle headed in their
> > >> >> thinking.  This does not make them the enemy, but merely to be
> >pitied
> > >> >> as an unintentional part of the problem.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> You may wish to re-read my post.  I never said that conservatives
> >are
> > >> >> "willing to kill anyone and everyone."  What I clearly said was 
>that
> > >> >> they have the ability to be realistic and recognize that sometimes
> >one
> > >> >> must sacrifice a few to save many.  Is this so complicated?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If one's choice to avoid collateral damage at all costs results in
> >the
> > >> >> loss of an even greater number of his own countryman, can he claim
> >to
> > >> >> be either wise OR strong?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Pragmatically yours,      -T
> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"
> > >> >> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > >> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 10:01 AM
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>> Your observation about the coverage of the mosque in Fallujah
> >where
> > >> >>>> Al-Zar
> > >> >>>> punk-boy was hiding was also correct.  We should have ignored 
>the
> > >> >>>> collaborating subversives in our media and allowed the generals 
>to
> > >> >>>> blast the
> > >> >>>> bastard, mosque and all, right into Allah's lap.  This only 
>sounds
> > >> >>>> bad to
> > >> >>>> those who haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to achieve
> > >> >>>> victory or
> > >> >>>> the sense to defer to those who do.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>> I'm tired of these two basic assertions that I keep seeing.  One 
>is
> > >>that
> > >> >>> the "liberals" are somehow unloyal and unamerican, as you seem to
> >be
> > >> >>> implying here by calling them "collaborating subversives in our
> > >>media".
> > >> >>> The other is that a lack of total willingness to kill anyone and
> > >> >>> everyone is some form of weakness, as you seem to imply when you
> >say
> > >> >>> that liberals "haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to
> >achieve
> > >> >>> victory or the sense to defer to those who do".
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> We will never have a reasonable debate here if these issues are 
>not
> > >> >>> addressed, in my opinion.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> To start with, I will claim that many of the "liberals" care as
> > >> >>> deeply
> > >> >>> about their country as you do.  I will also claim that the 
>ability
> >to
> > >> >>> show mercy or to abstain from killing from a position of strength
> >is
> > >> >>> a
> > >> >>> sign of power, not weakness.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Paul
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> =======================================================
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> > >> >
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