[Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
Sunil Ramalingam
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Sun Nov 12 12:11:41 PST 2006
Again, Tony, was there a national discussion over this 'democratization'
project? No.
I don't think we have the right to impose governments on others. I think
it's the height of arrogance. It's not for us to decide to attack states
that have done nothing to us.
I also think our experience was self-created. We didn't invent it, but we
thought it through without its imposition by someone else. This is a
crucial difference, not to be tossed aside.
I have no intent to have people in the middle east left to murder each
other, and it's dishonest of you to make that charge. But I don't believe
we have the right to attack and bomb other nations at will under the guise
of shaping their states. And if that were our goal in Iraq, we wouldn't be
builiding long-term bases and the biggest embassy of all.
'Raghead' is a racist term. I know this the hard way. Don't make excuses
for using it. I've heard people explain their use of the word 'nigger,' and
I recognize those excuses as bullshit. I don't know you, and I'm not going
to say you're racist, Tony. But you will go a long way in avoiding that
label if you don't use a term like that. Maybe it's a term you've used
thoughtlessly. I urge you to think about it.
Sunil
>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:29:13 -0800
>
>J and Sunil,
>
>Hope you two don't mind if I combine posts in a nefarious attempt to
>circumvent the four a day rule...
>
>J, I don't think it's fair to say we have failed in Iraq. the situation is
>of course as volatile as a reasonable person would expect given the region
>and its history. But does that mean that the process of democratization is
>automatically doomed to failure? Is not your conviction in that regard at
>risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophesy? Dare to hope, J.
>
>And Sunil, yes, the middle east is not known for budding democracies- until
>now, that is. But does that not mean we should not have tried to introduce
>them to such a system? Our system was unparallel at its inception as well,
>and look what a crowning glory it has proven to be historically.
>
>J, our response to 911 immoral and immature? Wow. Tell it to the victim's
>families.
>
>Sunil, my point, which you surely recognize, was that a rogue state can be
>transformed into a cooperating member of the civilized community as the
>south was during our civil war, Japan was after WW11, and as Iraq might
>become if we don't keep vacillating in our objectives. Just because
>something has not been done previously does not ensure that it can never be
>accomplished Sunil. To suggest otherwise would be to deny the invention of
>the automobile, the wheel itself, or our system of government. Dare to
>hope, Sunil. I submit that your determination that all those living in the
>middle east are forever condemned to murder one another willy-nilly, is
>indeed the true racism. My use of the term raghead is meant to apply to
>the
>glazed eyed, bomb wielding, seventh century sociopaths that so predominate
>in that culture. You are under no obligation to agree with me. Isn't
>freedom great?
>
>And finally, J: If you seriously think that Bush and company knew ahead of
>time about Osama Bin Raghead's plans to incinerate 3 thousand of your
>countrymen, and deliberately let it happen to justify a personal vendetta,
>then I'm afraid I must conclude that further dialog with you would be
>pointless unless you are willing to adjust your medication.
>
>Have a wonderful Sunday in this, the greatest nation on God's green Earth.
>
>Cordially yours, -T
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:46 AM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failure (Was Tet Offensive)
>
>
> > TonKnee says:
> >
> > "Distasteful, yes, but is failure an option when dealing with these
> > murderous ragheads"
> >
> > Are we failing, though? And just who tis it we are failing? To what
> > degree?
> >
> > Is it failing when we decide we never should have been in Iraq, never
> > should
> > have begun the operation "Iraqi Freedom", never should have interfered
> > with
> > the way another country runs itself - and pull our people out of a bad
> > situation and bring them home? Or tis the failure to allow thousands
>more
> > of OUR people to die for a group of people's morally indignant and
> > immature
> > response to a situation that happed in 1990? No, I don't mean the Iraqi
> > people, I mean Bush and his people.
> >
> > His daddy got his pants pulled down and his ass shown to the world and
>Jr.
> > is going to prove to the world "you can't do that to my daddy and get
>away
> > with it!" I mean, isn't this really what this is all about? He has
>been
> > planning this thing since he took office - all he, Jr., was looking for
> > was
> > an opportunity.
> >
> > There is proof that Bush, et al KNEW about 9/11 BEFORE it happened...and
> > did
> > nothing to stop it or even warn our country that eminent risk/danger was
> > at
> > hand. Is that possibly because he wanted the people on his side when he
> > attacked Iraq and the best way to cement that is by allowing some
> > sacrificial "lambs" to be killed? What's that old saying..."some have
>to
> > die so many will live"? Is that what Bush's motto truly is? He
>certainly
> > seems to be living it out, IMHO.
> >
> > You want to support Bush - go for it. But don't get on the rest of us
>who
> > say the thousands that died in 9/11 and the thousands that have died
>since
> > then is enough. We have NOTHING to gain by continuing this charade and
> > everything to gain when we bring our people home. We have no right
>under
> > any guise to "assert our will" either long distance or short. If those
> > people, like the people in other countries, want to live under
> > dictatorship
> > and hardship, shouldn't we allow that to happen? Who says OUR way of
> > running things could/would work for them anyway? It certainly has
> > problems
> > for us - why force that onto another country?
> >
> > Why not spend the billions of dollars being wasted on the Iraq War and
> > shore
> > up OUR country, OUR people, OUR system of living? Why must we be the
> > leaders that continue to be the big bully and say "Do it our way or
>else"
> > and in reality gain NOTHING for it?
> >
> > I don't view it as a failure for our troops and our government to get
>out
> > of
> > Iraq - I view it as a people recognizing they were in a situation they
>had
> > no business being in and knew when to leave. We accomplished what we
> > sought
> > to do - Sadam is not only out, but scheduled for execution. The WMD,
> > though
> > never a REAL threat, are nowhere to be found and therefore out of
> > commission. So, bring our troops home and let's get on with getting our
> > country back on the road of being the best it can be.
> >
> >
> > J :]
> >
> > P.S. IF you respond to this ToKnee - I am asking you to be respectful
>and
> > for once a gentleman about it. I have not insulted you or your
> > intelligence...it'd be a nice change if you'd take the same tact when
> > dealing with people.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> >>To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >>Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:16:01 -0800
> >>
> >>Paul, how is your morning? Coooold up there I'll bet. Yeah, you were
> >>generalizing - it's cool though - don't we all? I've always wanted to
> >>armchair generalize... (snicker snicker)
> >>
> >>I just feel that when dealing with a clearly sociopathic and widespread
> >>enemy, we are unfortunately going to find ourselves in a position of
> >>utilizing unconventional methods in order to prevail. Distasteful, yes,
> >>but
> >>is failure an option when dealing with these murderous ragheads? What
> >>would
> >>General Washington have advised? General Grant or Sherman? General Mac
> >>Arthur or Patton? Or perhaps Abe Lincoln, who presided over our
>country's
> >>most horrific bloodshed in order to achieve a long term peace?
> >>
> >>Have we lost the will to assert our strength for the long term benefit
>of
> >>mankind on Earth? Do we so distrust ourselves and this grand
>experiment?
> >>Does our untethered heart find itself blown hither and yon by an
> >>unpredictable and gusty political wind? Are we so fickle as to desert
> >>those
> >>who led us courageously through the smoke after 911?
> >>
> >>As for Iraq, Paul, I don't think the question of Hussein's involvement
> >>with
> >>terrorists can be so cavalierly dismissed. Nor do I think Bush &
>company
> >>should be slow roasted for acting on intelligence that the democrats
> >>themselves concluded was very troubling. It was a bi-partisan decision
>to
> >>pursue Saddam, after all. And clear purpose? What about freedom?
> >>Democracy? The rule of law? Granted, Paul, such concepts are foreign
>to
> >>uneducated, third worlders, but should ignorance deprive them of the
> >>opportunity to live as their God intended, cooperating with one another
> >>and
> >>progressing with the bulk of the world in relative peace and prosperity?
> >>
> >>Your spot on Paul, that trying to save lives and save our economy are
>both
> >>patriotic values. And I accept from the tone of your posts that you are
> >>sincere in that wish but simply find other solutions more palatable. I
> >>respect you for that and find your reasoned approach and gracious
>posture
> >>during this dialog to be refreshing as it contrasts with that of some on
> >>the
> >>left.
> >>
> >>Cordially, -Tony
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 8:29 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >>
> >>
> >> > Tony,
> >> >
> >> > You're right, you never said "willing to kill anyone and everyone".
>I
> >> > was generalizing. You did appear to be arguing that we were being
>too
> >> > soft when we didn't immediately bomb a mosque that had a known
> >> > terrorist
> >> > in it. I remember other times that you have indicated that liberals
> >> > are
> >> > weak for not being more aggressive in this war.
> >> >
> >> > The people that you call either "muddle headed" or "(sharing) the
>goals
> >> > of America's enemies" are, in my view, simply trying to put the
>country
> >> > back on course. It has been shown that Iraq had nothing to do with
> >> > 9/11, nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, and nothing to do with WMDs. So
>why
> >> > sink a billion dollars a day into a war that should by all rights
>never
> >> > have been started, but which is now causing as much violence as it
> >> > hoped
> >> > to stop? Why expose our troops to death and destruction when there
>is
> >> > no clear purpose in mind?
> >> >
> >> > Trying to save lives and save our economy are both patriotic values.
>I
> >> > think many of these people deserve more respect than that.
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> >
> >> > Tony wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Paul, you misunderstand. I do not take the position that ALL
>liberals
> >> >> are disloyal and share the goals of America's enemies, just that the
> >> >> bulk of them do. Some are simply too muddle headed in their
> >> >> thinking. This does not make them the enemy, but merely to be
>pitied
> >> >> as an unintentional part of the problem.
> >> >>
> >> >> You may wish to re-read my post. I never said that conservatives
>are
> >> >> "willing to kill anyone and everyone." What I clearly said was that
> >> >> they have the ability to be realistic and recognize that sometimes
>one
> >> >> must sacrifice a few to save many. Is this so complicated?
> >> >>
> >> >> If one's choice to avoid collateral damage at all costs results in
>the
> >> >> loss of an even greater number of his own countryman, can he claim
>to
> >> >> be either wise OR strong?
> >> >>
> >> >> Pragmatically yours, -T
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"
> >> >> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 10:01 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Your observation about the coverage of the mosque in Fallujah
>where
> >> >>>> Al-Zar
> >> >>>> punk-boy was hiding was also correct. We should have ignored the
> >> >>>> collaborating subversives in our media and allowed the generals to
> >> >>>> blast the
> >> >>>> bastard, mosque and all, right into Allah's lap. This only sounds
> >> >>>> bad to
> >> >>>> those who haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to achieve
> >> >>>> victory or
> >> >>>> the sense to defer to those who do.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> I'm tired of these two basic assertions that I keep seeing. One is
> >>that
> >> >>> the "liberals" are somehow unloyal and unamerican, as you seem to
>be
> >> >>> implying here by calling them "collaborating subversives in our
> >>media".
> >> >>> The other is that a lack of total willingness to kill anyone and
> >> >>> everyone is some form of weakness, as you seem to imply when you
>say
> >> >>> that liberals "haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to
>achieve
> >> >>> victory or the sense to defer to those who do".
> >> >>>
> >> >>> We will never have a reasonable debate here if these issues are not
> >> >>> addressed, in my opinion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> To start with, I will claim that many of the "liberals" care as
> >> >>> deeply
> >> >>> about their country as you do. I will also claim that the ability
>to
> >> >>> show mercy or to abstain from killing from a position of strength
>is
> >> >>> a
> >> >>> sign of power, not weakness.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Paul
> >> >>>
> >> >>> =======================================================
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> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
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