[Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?

Joe Campbell joekc at adelphia.net
Sat Nov 11 08:33:29 PST 2006 

And where did I say that your friends ran an illegal boarding house?

Please stop lying and try to keep discussions on a minimal level of civility.

--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote: 

=============
"Running an illegal boarding house -- whether or not it follows the letter of the law -- is among those things that should not be done. Like being a bookie one is, at a minimum, receiving funds that are not taxed"

I think that most folks will have taken your meaning just fine, Joe. 


"I cannot talk to you any further. For reasons unknown you are incredibly uncivil toward me... "


I have lost count of the number of times your have walked away from a debate with just such an aggrieved, put upon comment. I feel certain that it won't be the last. Please bear in mind that these discussions start with you responding to my posts to others and not me injecting myself into yours. Since you seem to be a guy who gets his feelings hurt so easily, I've got to wonder why you persist?

gc


From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; <betsyd at turbonet.com>; "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 6:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?


I have not accused your friends of tax evasion, or of anything else. I was speaking hypothetically and generally you know it. Please stop lying, Crabtree! That is just going too far.

I cannot talk to you any further. For reasons unknown you are incredibly uncivil toward me and others shouldn't have to be bothered with it with this childish back and forth banter. It is difficult when someone is spreading lies about you in a public forum, so I hope that others forgive me for this last post.

--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote: 

=============
Sorry Matt, but I'm afraid that there are a couple more things to say to be said before I lay this topic aside.

I might have had some small amount of respect for Joe and his zeal for the law if he were attempting to apply his enthusiasm evenhandedly.

 When this matter was first brought up for public scrutiny, there were two separate parties responsible for filing the complaint. Joe seems to "accidentally" dismiss the allegations made by Ms. Dianne Baumgart in favor of vilifying "my friends." (in almost every case people I don't know and have never met) Even going so far as to accuse them of tax evasion. I'm not sure but I suspect that Joe is not privy to other peoples 1099's and any suggestion of irregularity is nothing but the wildest of speculation, based on nothing more then his fevered imagination and a desire to make himself popular on the playground.

Another often overlooked tidbit in this boarding house issue (the half that Joe so fervently follows) is that the party that brought forward the complaint doesn't live within the jurisdiction of the city or within 5 miles of any of the alleged violators. Also that when the list of alleged I.B.H's was presented, it was well known by the reporting party that there were other properties engaged in the exact same activity as close as directly across the street from locations that were being scrutinized. Why were these property's  excluded from the complaint? I suspect that even those who give this matter only cursory attention will be able to correctly guess the obvious answer. I bring this up not because it has any bearing on the law, as such, but because it shows the motivations of the little club with which Joe is aligned.

Another variation on this pressing issue would be Joe's total lack of concern for the numerous instances of university students parents purchasing property for their sons or daughters to reside in while they attend school. As soon as little sonny buttons moves in and has a few of his buds join him (to say nothing of their attendant girlfriends) to help with expenses, a potential problem with Joe's precious law is apparent. There are many variations of this scenario, none of which seem to cause so much as a flutter of the needle on Jersey Joe's outrage meter. I believe that the City realizes the problems with the various discrepancies in the code and is currently reviewing the pertinent ordinances.

All I can say is Joe makes one heck of a fine oration. Morals, democracy, following the letter of the law, just a good ol' boy, etc. all the while ignoring the actual facts of the topic at hand. What I hear really being said is "I'm only to happy to meddle in matters that don't concern me." ' I'm glad to speculate about others faults, even if I am blind to my own." "I favor unequal enforcement of the law if it jams a finger in the eye of my enemies." " I have no problem with accusing others of felonious conduct with nothing to back up my assertions."And last but far from least, the oft repeated "I really am a swell guy. Really, I am." 

gc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
To: <betsyd at turbonet.com>; <jampot at adelphia.net>; <joekc at adelphia.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?


> Betsy, I believe there are two parties to this discussion. Regardless its 
> time to take it offline.
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
>>From: "Betsy Dickow" <betsyd at turbonet.com>
>>Reply-To: Betsy Dickow <betsyd at turbonet.com>
>>To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>, "Joe Campbell" 
>><joekc at adelphia.net>
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>>Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 22:09:04 -0800
>>
>>Please keep this discussion civil and polite Crabtree.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>>To: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:46 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>>
>>
>> > Joe,
>> >
>> > It seems to me that since you couldn't make much of a case against your
>> > favorite boogiemen in this latest discussion, you're mincing away with a
>> > major case of panty wad. Again. Might I suggest a little baby powder and
>> > loose trousers till the condition shows improvement?
>> >
>> > gc
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 9:50 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>> >
>> >
>> > Gary,
>> >
>> > It is not a logical stretch to note that your explanation is a bunch of
>> > evasive b-s. Imagine if everyone were to apply such reasoning to every
>> > law!
>> > What a wonderful world that would be!
>> >
>> > It cracks me up when conservatives like you pretend to be men of
>> > principle,
>> > accusing others of hypocrisy, and then use such slippery rhetoric to 
>>allow
>> > their friends to get off the hook!
>> >
>> > --
>> > Joe Campbell
>> >
>> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > =============
>> > Joe.
>> >
>> > Your kindness in offering me another chance to respond to your 
>>speculative
>> > questions is quite touching. As I said in my previous post, I've got no
>> > problem with you drawing what ever conclusions make you the happiest. 
>>That
>> > said...
>> >
>> > My understanding of what is and isn't a boarder remains unchanged.
>> >
>> > NSA "students" would not be violating any pertinent city code 
>>regardless.
>> >
>> > I am in favor of fair and equal application of sound law. Even the City
>> > realizes that it's codes concerning this matter are confused and
>> > unenforceable. Why should I criticize anyone for a hypothetical
>> > transgression when the governing body can't tell me precisely what the
>> > transgression is or how it differs from several other group living
>> > arraignments.
>> >
>> > Having said this, conclude what you will. To make the assertion that
>> > because
>> > I won't join you in a hypothetical condemnation, I must therefore 
>>"believe
>> > that (my) friends are above the law and beyond contempt." seems like 
>>quite
>> > the logical stretch.
>> >
>> > gc
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 1:52 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>> >
>> >
>> > Gary,
>> >
>> > I asked you a few questions and you ignored all of them. Instead, you
>> > offered your all too usual array of insults and evasions. Given this, I
>> > drew
>> > my own conclusions. Perhaps this was rash, so I'll give you another
>> > chance.
>> >
>> > Now that you have a clearer understanding of what is and is not a 
>>boarder,
>> > after your recent extensive research on the subject, in the event that
>> > there
>> > are actual violations by NSA students of the city code, will you join me
>> > in
>> > condemning such violations?
>> >
>> > If you are unable to criticize your friends for even hypothetical
>> > violations
>> > of the law, it seems reasonable for me to determine that you believe 
>>that
>> > your friends are above the law and beyond contempt. Which is precisely
>> > what
>> > I concluded in my previous posts.
>> >
>> > Does my chain of reasoning make sense now?
>> >
>> > Best, Joe
>> >
>> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > =============
>> > Joe, you are a panic. Your ability to reach a silly conclusion based on
>> > what
>> > you think you know is second to none. If I had your special ability to
>> > read
>> > what isn't there into other peoples posts I'd be able to look at "J.
>> > O'Ford's" online lunacy and see At Swim-Two-Birds.
>> >
>> > Take from my response whatever will meet your expectations. It's clear
>> > that
>> > if you don't see what you "thought" you would, you'll create it. This 
>>must
>> > be a useful talent to possess when it comes to maintaining your
>> > hysterical,
>> > self-righteousness. If you need to assign someone to fulfill one of the
>> > antihero roles in your little mental melodrama, I'm only to happy to be 
>>of
>> > service.
>> >
>> > You're welcome,
>> > gc
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:16 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>> >
>> >
>> > So the short answer to at least one of my questions is that if someone 
>>is
>> > a
>> > friend of yours and he breaks the law, then we should ignore it. To do
>> > otherwise would be to engage in "incessant carping."
>> >
>> > Even though this recent round of "incessant carping" began with a post 
>>by
>> > your friend, Dale Courtney, and that some of us were just responding to
>> > his
>> > misleading analogies and false accusations, that is all beside the point
>> > because, after all, Dale is your friend and he gets to do whatever he
>> > wants.
>> >
>> > Thanks, Gary! That's exactly what I thought. It explains your role in 
>>the
>> > NSA saga perfectly!
>> >
>> > Best, Joe
>> >
>> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > =============
>> > I didn't miss your point Joe, I dismissed it. The long and the short of
>> > this
>> > topic is this. I did not accuse anyone of violating any laws. If you go
>> > back
>> > and actually read the exchange between  Ms. Mix and myself you will find
>> > that I wished the students success in finding a local home to stay in 
>>and
>> > that their stay should be as pleasant as possible. In my previous posts 
>>I
>> > made exactly two points. The first was that the situation that Ms. Mix
>> > described in her original request could very easily be construed to meet
>> > the
>> > city's definition for a boarding house (Ord. 2006-1, 08/07/06) and that 
>>I
>> > found that amusing and ironic. No amount of sophistry on your part can
>> > change this fact. It does and I was. Period. No matter how many, if's,
>> > perhaps, maybes, and might have's you throw in.
>> >
>> > The second point was that there was nothing about the topic which would
>> > give
>> > it some sort of special dispensation from being fair game for comment 
>>and
>> > discussion, either on Dale Courtney's web site or any other. Once again, 
>>I
>> > don't see any room for discussion or disagreement.
>> >
>> > Everything else you drone on about is simply an exercise in arguing with
>> > yourself. (or some here to fore unintroduced third party, with your 
>>debate
>> > style it's difficult to tell) I do find your remark "The â?oweekly or
>> >  longer�
>> > phrase here refers to, for instance, an exchange of room and board for
>> > some
>> > kind of monetary compensation paid, by the boarder, on a WEEKLY, or
>> > monthly,
>> > or yearly, etc. basis." to be interesting. Does this mean that by some
>> > modification of the payment schedule the folks who "host" NSA students 
>>can
>> > get you and your tolerance club to cease your incessant carping? I 
>>didn't
>> > think so.
>> >
>> > I hope you're enjoying the election,
>> > gc
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 10:44 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>> >
>> >
>> > Gary,
>> >
>> > Not surprisingly, you missed the point. Let me slow things down for you.
>> >
>> > I said nothing about there being something in "the city code that
>> > distinguishes between one month or four years." I said that there was
>> > something in the city code that distinguished between a guest who might
>> > stay
>> > a month or longer from a boarder who is "housed or fed for compensation 
>>on
>> > a
>> > weekly or longer basis."
>> >
>> > The â?oweekly or longerâ? phrase here refers to, for instance, an 
>>exchange of
>> > room and board for some kind of monetary compensation paid, by the
>> > boarder,
>> > on a WEEKLY, or monthly, or yearly, etc. basis.
>> >
>> > Can you admit this much? If so, then there are CLEAR differences between
>> > the
>> > situation with regard to Keely's friends and the situation with regard 
>>to
>> > NSA boarders.
>> >
>> > First, Keely's friends have VIOLATED NO LAWS. There are, as of yet, no
>> > Korean student boarders in Moscow and there has not, as of yet, been any
>> > WEEKLY (or longer) compensation paid by these non-existent boarders. In
>> > the
>> > case of NSA students, the allegation, at least, is that there have been
>> > violations of the very code you note below, and that there are, as we
>> > speak,
>> > continued violations of that code. The complaint by folks like myself is
>> > that this is part of a general pattern of disregard for city law and
>> > disrespect for folks who do not adopt Doug Wilson's narrow worldview.
>> >
>> > Second, Keely's original post requested that if anyone was "interested 
>>in
>> > hosting for a few weeks, with compensation, please e-mail" her friend. 
>>My
>> > point was that compensation for a few weeks was not the same thing as
>> > WEEKLY
>> > compensation. I could have stated this more clearly, I admit, but I was 
>>in
>> > a
>> > rush to get to my day job.
>> >
>> > Third, there was nothing in Keelyâ?Ts original post suggesting what form
>> > this
>> > compensation should take. If it is to take the form of food or odd jobs,
>> > as
>> > Tom suggests, then Iâ?Tm not sure how it could be construed as a 
>>violation
>> > of
>> > the city code.
>> >
>> > Overall, Dale's comparison between the situation involving Keely's 
>>friends
>> > and the ones involving NSA students is like the comparison between 
>>apples
>> > and oranges.
>> >
>> > Let me close with a few questions. Since we now have a clearer
>> > understanding
>> > of what is and is not a boarder, in the event that there are actual
>> > violations by NSA students of the city code, will you join me in
>> > condemning
>> > such violations? If not, what should be done? Why is it that you rush to
>> > post about potential violations of the city code when it concerns Keely
>> > and
>> > her friends yet ignore the allegations of actual violations of the city
>> > code
>> > when it concerns your friends? Is there something about someone's being
>> > your
>> > friend that makes him above the law and beyond contempt?
>> >
>> > Joe
>> >
>> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > =============
>> > Joe asks...
>> >
>> > Isn't Keely talking about folks who are visiting for a month or so, not
>> > folks who are intending to attend and then graduate from some local
>> > four-year school?
>> >
>> > And I reply that I'm sure that she is. The fact that you "would not
>> > classify
>> > putting someone up for a month or so as housing or feeding someone "for
>> > compensation on a weekly or longer basis." (a phrase that defies logic,
>> > but
>> > I'll assume to take your meaning) makes no difference. There is nothing 
>>in
>> > the city code that distinguishes between one month or four years. Any
>> > difference that has been discussed so far on this forum has been opinion
>> > based on personnel feelings, not law. I find it funny and ironic that
>> > folks
>> > who would use this issue to attack one group and then turn around and
>> > advocate the same thing, all the while claiming a difference based on 
>>some
>> > arbitrary duration and their subjective opinion. The fact that Mr.
>> > Courtney
>> > or anyone else might happen to have an opinion and elect to comment on 
>>it
>> > seems perfectly reasonable to me.
>> >
>> > gc
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 7:11 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>> >
>> >
>> >> Isn't Keely talking about folks who are visiting for a month or so, not
>> >> folks who are intending to attend and then graduate from some local
>> >> four-year school? I would not classify putting someone up for a month 
>>or
>> >> so as housing or feeding someone "for compensation on a weekly or 
>>longer
>> >> basis." It doesn't say housing or feeding "for a week or more."
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Joe Campbell
>> >>
>> >> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> =============
>> >> For the last couple of days posting to this forum has been a bit screwy
>> >> from my computer. I hope this only shows up once.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Wrong, as usual. City code quite clearly defines boarding house's as
>> >> 12. Boarding House.
>> >>
>> >> A building occupied by its owner in which not more than six (6) 
>>roomers,
>> >> lodgersand/or boarders are housed or fed for compensation on a weekly 
>>or
>> >> longer basis. Ord. 2006-11, 08/07/06)With this in mind, I fail to see 
>>how
>> >> the situation that Ms. Mix is suggesting, and the previous boarding 
>>house
>> >> issue that you have decried with such vigor in the not so distant past,
>> >> is
>> >> any different -- aside from the players, of  course. It  seems that you
>> >> would hold  Ms. Mix and friends to a different  standard than certain
>> >> "others" that you do not hold in the same high regard.  I can't for the
>> >> life of me see how it could be inappropriate for Dale to suggest that
>> >> some
>> >> small measure of consistency enter into the equation.
>> >>
>> >> gc
>> >>  ----- Original Message -----
>> >>  From: Tom Hansen
>> >>  To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'Vision 2020'
>> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:10 AM
>> >>  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  Applying the quotation marks (") to my statement was merely meant to
>> >> serve as my distinction of the two concepts, not to reflect any 
>>specific
>> >> legal boundary, ok?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  Although the city code does not (in writing) define a "boarding 
>>house",
>> >> a
>> >> session (not that long ago) of the city council verbally defined
>> >> "boarding
>> >> houses".  I could dig through my repository of audio files of City
>> >> Council
>> >> sessions, but I would consider that to be time and effort poorly spent 
>>as
>> >> I am certain that you can recall these sessions on your own.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  And lastly, Comb-Over's inappropriateness was apparent in his
>> >> implication
>> >> at:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  "I'm sure that everyone she recommends will have their conditional use
>> >> permits thru the City, approved and paid for - just like every other
>> >> international student's host family in Moscow has."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  Enough said.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  Tom Hansen
>> >>
>> >>  Moscow, Idaho
>> >>
>> >>  Intolerista Sergeant-at-Arms
>> >>
>> >>   "Most truths are so naked that people feel sorry for them and cover
>> >> them
>> >> up, at least a little bit."
>> >>  - Edward R. Murrow
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>  From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at adelphia.net]
>> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 7:02 AM
>> >>  To: Tom Hansen; Vision 2020
>> >>  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  After having glanced at the Moscow city code definition of a boarding
>> >> house, could you please explain how providing accommodations to guests
>> >> for
>> >> a couple of weeks for compensation fails to meet the afore mentioned
>> >> definition? Just exactly where in the code does it distinguish between  
>>a
>> >> "resident guest" and a "resident tenant"? And lastly, why would it be
>> >> "inappropriate commentary" to discuss this type of topic on Dale's
>> >> personal blog and yet be just ducky for you to do the same on your own
>> >> web
>> >> site, to which you thoughtfully provided a link, not to mention here on
>> >> the V?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  gc
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >               http://www.fsr.net
>> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>Betsy, AVG is pleased to note that NO VIRUS was found in this incoming
>>message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.0/525 - Release Date: 11/9/2006
>>
>>=======================================================
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>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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