[Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police
UnionStandNot a Conflict
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Thu May 25 08:38:00 PDT 2006
Wayne,
I am glad to see you can respond to a question other than with another question. I am unhappy that you have such harsh and nasty things to say about our police officers.
I must also protest you assessment that I am lazy for not wanting to paw through every post you made in the last three years looking for scrapes and clues as to your true opinion of the MPD when I can just ask you.
I admit, when I was 16-18 I hated the MPD. But you know, I was a teenager and did things the cops didn't like. I imagine the people I have called the cops on were not to happy. But, hey, they need to not break the law. Yes, there are bad cops, I am sure. But most of them have been good, responsive and competent. I have no real complaints.
Since you managed to answer ONE question of mine, I will answer all our yours.
"Is it your contention that there is nothing about the MPD that either needs improvement or is likely to need improvement in the future or actions to prevent degradation in the future?"
Yes, it could use improvement. But a union is not the answer.
"Do you think that there is any organization that can not be improved?"
I am sure there isn't. But why change what already works well. Let us focus more drastic changes on things that need drastic change, drastic change for a good system is not warranted.
I think that most people are happy with the police except those that violate the law and get caught by them. The fact that you are getting communications that are negative about the police is two fold;
1) You are looking for people complaining about the police.
2) People complain when things go wrong, they do not complain when their couch is not stolen, or they were not pulled over for something they didn't do.
I don't think this conspiracy you have about the police is any more valid than your disproved conspiracy that the 2005 city election was rigged. You had support for that one too, mainly by the losing candidates.
I don't think that the police wanting a city recognized union does not mean the city has to provide one. They might all want new cars, a bigger station, and government provided houses too. I support them to have fair wages, decent benefits, and tolerable working conditions, just like everybody else. I greatly appreciate them keeping me safe. But I do not think a union is warranted.
I think Councilman Dickinson had some good points to bring up. But I don't think they provide sufficient reasons to end the communication between our elected officials and those that enforce the law or invite a third party.
Gary Crabtree also had some excellent viewpoints as well that I think were stronger arguments against the union.
Regards,
_DJA
Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote: Donovan,
Re: "Dodging the question."
I am very sorry that I have over-challenged your reading comprehension skills.
You asked me about deficiencies in the MPD. I replied:
"You may find many of my comments about the MPD in the archives. Have at it."
Either you are unwilling or unable to look up the answers yourself. Whichever, I am not going to waste energy doing it for you. But just a hint: I have posted about traffic law enforcement many times, as have other posters (e.g. Pat Kraut posted several times about traffic enforcement problems). I have posted also about civil rights violations, favoritism, and inept leadership (which I believe is partly responsible for the present union issue).
If you are unwilling to do a little research in the V 2020 archives, do not blame my lack of opinions on the subject, but on your own laziness or ineptitude in discovering what they are.
In fact, it is you who have failed to provide answers to two relevant questions posed directly to you which are an important part of the union issue:
"Is it your contention that there is nothing about the MPD that either needs improvement or is likely to need improvement in the future or actions to prevent degradation in the future?"
"Do you think that there is any organization that can not be improved?"
I would be very interested in hearing your opinions on this subject. They may lead to a fruitful dialogue, although Councilperson John Dickison has already provided some insightful material for that dialogue and to which in time I may respond.
It is your opinion of the MPD that:
"I am happy with the ones we got. Why do we need to have better ones, assuming there are better ones?"
While you may sincerely believe that, I am sure that such an opinion is not universally held by area residents. I know this because of many communications I have received. In the past, some of my posted criticisms have resulted in a higher number than usual occurrences of being followed or being in the proximity of MPD cars and other interesting incidents for a few days. This happened especially after I posted access to a very long document giving in great detail a description and criticism of the MPD about one particular incident. I am sure that many citizens refrain from making public comments about the MPD for fear of this kind of behavior. I am glad that I am a very careful and conscientious driver.
If you are happy with the status quo of the MPD and disagree with the specific criticisms backed by evidence myself and others have made, then look up those comments in the archives and give evidence why they are incorrect instead of playing high school debate club games.
In the mean time it is useful to remember that it was members of the MPD who brought up the proposal of unionization. If you are happy with the MPD, then it seems to me you would want them to be happy in their jobs so that they will stay here. If they were happy, their unionization request would not have occurred.
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Donovan Arnold
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police UnionStandNot a Conflict
Wayne,
Nice try of dodging the question.
_DJA
Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote: Donovan:
Do you think that there is any organization that can not be improved?
W.
----- Original Message ----- From: Donovan Arnold
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police UnionStandNot a Conflict
Wayne,
If you didn't want public comment on why you think we need better MPD officers and we would get it through the officers paying a union, why did you put it on Vision 2020, a public forum?
Nice try dodging of the question.
Regards,
_DJA
Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote: Donovan,
You may find many of my comments about the MPD in the archives. Have at it. My original question was directed at Gary Crabtree.
W.
----- Original Message ----- From: Donovan Arnold
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police UnionStandNot a Conflict
Wayne,
It is my contention that no proof has been provided that a union will improve the competency of the MPD-which is not needed anyway, our police are highly competent.
Why are you dodging my question? Why do you think that our police are not good enough? What are you saying is wrong with them?
You appear to be the only one saying that they are not good enough. I would like to know why you think that?
Regards,
_DJA
Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote: Donovan,
Is it your contention that there is nothing about the MPD that either needs improvement or is likely to need improvement in the future or actions to prevent degradation in the future?
W.
----- Original Message ----- From: Donovan Arnold
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police UnionStandNot a Conflict
"Is it then
your contention that raising salaries and improving working
conditions in the MPD will not promote the hiring and retention of more
able, effective police officers?" Wayne Fox (Art Deco)
Wayne, sounds to me that you are saying our police are not
able or effective enough for Moscow. I am happy with the ones
we got. Why do we need to have better ones, assuming there are
better ones?
_DJA
Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote: Gary,
Is it then your contention that raising salaries and improving working
conditions in the MPD will not promote the hiring and retention of more
able, effective police officers?
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: "g. crabtree"
To: "Tom Hansen" ; "'Moscow Vision 2020'"
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police
UnionStandNot a Conflict
> First name familiarity and approachability are charming concepts but I
> really do not see how they out weigh the negatives of the union or even
> enhance law enforcement in the community in any appreciable way. (this
> isn't Detroit or Newark after all) Perhaps it would be good if you did go
> on a bit longer because the only picture I get is of my tax bill going
> through the roof and nothing of substance to show for it, except a fatter
> union and big grins on a couple of councilmen.
>
> gc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Hansen"
> To: "'g. crabtree'" ; "'Moscow Vision 2020'"
>
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 7:28 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police Union
> StandNot a Conflict
>
>
>> One MAJOR problem that the Moscow Police Department is experiencing is
>> lack
>> of continuity. After a year officers tend to pack up and move to
>> "greener
>> pastures", primarily due to wages/salaries that are not competitive (here
>> in
>> Moscow) with other comparably-sized community police departments.
>> Ultimately this results in loss of quality police officers.
>>
>> Establishing a police union will ensure the rights and privileges for our
>> police department; rights and privileges that have up until just recently
>> received nothing more than lip service from our city council.
>>
>> Once continuity is established, the community becomes familiar with
>> members
>> of its police force. The community gains first name familiarity with the
>> officers responsible for protecting its streets. This level of
>> familiarity
>> breeds a relationship where police officers become very approachable.
>>
>> I could go on and on about how such a relationship benefits the
>> neighborhoods, but I am sure you get the picture already.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "If not us, who?
>> If not now, when?"
>>
>> - Unknown
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at adelphia.net]
>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 6:58 PM
>> To: Tom Hansen; Moscow Vision 2020
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Stout Not Wrong n Union Support / Police Union
>> StandNot a Conflict
>>
>> Ray writes a fine letter as far as it goes. The question I have yet to
>> see
>> answered satisfactorily is how is a unionized police force is good for
>> the
>> city and by extension the citizens? It's easy to see that it will be good
>> for the union. More dues. It will be good for politicians who support it.
>> More contributions. It might be good for the police. More wages and
>> benifits, perhaps. But good for the people of Moscow as a whole? That
>> hasn't
>>
>> been established by any stretch of the imagination. In fact its not too
>> hard
>>
>> to envision several negative outcomes that will be brought about by union
>> recognition not the least of which will be greatly increased costs.
>>
>> gc
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
>
_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
---------------------------------
Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates._____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates._____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates._____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
---------------------------------
Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone. Get Yahoo! Messenger with Voice _____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20060525/b1175561/attachment-0001.htm
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list