[Vision2020] Wal-Mart: Replies to Donovan and Crabtree

[joekc at adelphia.net]

I'm not perfect, Donovan. I can only try to be as good as I can be. If I wait until my actions are perfectly consistent, I will never do anything. I'm starting with Wal-Mart and hopefully I'll get to the rest of it in time. 

I think Wal-Mart banks on the fact that we're not perfect and we'll all reason in the same way that you do below. The whole point of my story was to note that if something is wrong, it is wrong. The fact that others do it, too, does not make it right. You have to start somewhere.

If you can look at Wal-Mart's full record and continue to shop there, then all the power to you. I'm not here to pass judgment. For me, I see a business that is able to sell low-cost products due to the fact that they hire low-wage, part-time workers so that they don't have to give them full-time pay and benefits. But people are people Donovan and eventually they get sick. If they don't have insurance, their costs eventually get transferred back on us all. When I look at Wal-Mart, I see a company that sells cheap products manufactured in countries that have no human rights record. Thus, I see low-costs, that are not really as low as they first look, at a high price to humanity, one that I am no longer willing to pay. 

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: 

=============
Joe,
  
  Your story is not relevant to my point.
  
  Your story would be better told this way;
  
  A boy named Joe goes out and tosses 15 eggs at house of an old man that  is bed ridden. On the way home he catches three boys throwing 10 eggs  at a fraternity house. He goes to the door of the fraternity and tells  on one just one of the kids.
  
 You are buying and using  products from a government that kills innocent people, while you are  whining about others buying products from governments that provide low  paying jobs to people that would otherwise have no job. 
  
 It  just doesn't make since Joe. It is like a man beating his wife for  looking at another man while he goes out every night to a brothel. 
  
  Put bluntly, your criticisms are hypocritical when you attack Wal-Mart  for supporting private Chinese businessmen trying to make ends meet  when you yourself are supporting governments in Iran and Saudi Arabia. 
  
  _DJA
  
  

joekc at adelphia.net wrote:  Donovan and Mr. Crabtree,

I’m sorry for the combined post but I have only one more post to use today.

Both of you used an interesting fallacy in response to a previous post of mine on the proposed Super Wal-Mart.

Mr.  Crabtree wrote: “Your argument with regard to aesthetics doesn't fly  all that well either. … You didn’t pipe up about any of [previous]  developments, why the concern now? Sounds more like a case of not ‘in  my backyard’ syndrome than any real desire for architectural grace.”

Donovan  wrote: “Can you please explain to me how it is that you can buy  plastics and gasoline from countries like Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi  Arabia etc., that have the worst human rights record in the world, yet  at the same time scorn Wal-Mart for buying products from other  businesses that manufacture their goods in China?”

In  response, here is a story. For 15 weeks, children threw eggs at the  house of Mr. Crabtree-Arnold. One day, as he was walking to his car,  Mr. Crabtree-Arnold noticed young Tommy, throwing an egg at his house.  Mr. Crabtree-Arnold scolded Tommy, at which point Tommy replied: “For  15 weeks kids have been throwing eggs at your house. You never said  anything against them, so why pick on me?”

Does that fact that Mr. Crabtree-Arnold never said anything prior to this day mean that he has no reason to scold Tommy?

Here are some comments to other points that you’ve made:

1/  Donovan: “If you believe that countries with bad human rights records  should be denied jobs, and believe the US kills innocents overseas,  then why are you not for exporting US jobs to countries with better  human rights records then our own?”

Reply: I love our country and I want to make it the best that it can be. 

2/  Crabtree: “I would suggest that if you stand in the way of a place to  shop being built you are most assuredly dictating, in an albeit small  way, where folks can and can't shop.”

Reply: You are wrong.  There is a difference between dictating what people do and using  one’s words to influence what people do. The latter respects that  people have the capacities to reason and make decisions for themselves.  The former does not.

Furthermore, by attempting to keep a Super  Wal-Mart from coming into Moscow, I am not “dictating where people  can shop.” We have a Wal-Mart and there is a Super Wal-Mart scheduled  for Pullman. People will still be able to shop at Wal-Mart.

3/  Crabtree: “… having a Wal Mart on the east side of town would seem  to be in keeping with the ‘smart growth’ mantra I keep hearing you  MCA types carry on about. Isn't the idea to have shopping be within  walking distance of residential development?”

Reply: You must  be joking. Do you think that Super Wal-Mart would plan for a gas  station on location if the intent were only to increase the level of  walking customers? If this reply were correct, it would make a mockery  of the economic arguments in support of having a Super Wal-Mart in  town, which only work if customers beyond the east side of Moscow visit  the store often. Part of my concern with having a Super Wal-Mart nearby  is that I already have a difficult time walking or riding my bike to  different places in Moscow as it is. A Super Wal-Mart on Route 8 will  only make matters worse.

4/ Donovan: “Just because a place offers low prices does not mean that they are exploiting others.”

Reply:  I didn’t suggest this argument. I said that Wal-Mart happened to  offer low prices because they exploit others. I’m not claiming that  this is true because of some general rule. Crabtree asks that I provide  evidence for exploitation in the form of some pro-Wal-Mart website and,  well, I guess I can’t do that. Clearly there is a problem here since  both of you seem to think that any evidence in support of my claim is  prejudiced since it is …. well, evidence in support of something you  don’t believe.

I did give just one small example of  exploitation. Part of the reason that Wal-Mart offers low prices is  that many of their products are manufactured in countries that fail to  recognize the concept of a human right. Point out that other stores are  guilty of the same and I’ll point you to the Tommy story above. I’m  not perfect but at least I can try to stand up to principles in which I  truly believe as best as I can. I don’t condemn people who think  otherwise. I do wonder why people worry so much about whether we recite  the pledge of allegiance instead of just living in accordance with the  thoughts and sentiments it conveys: “liberty and justice for all.”

5/  “P.S. Tony, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes a bit here but when it  comes to our resident junior philosopher's musings there's plenty  ‘wrongness’ for ten folks to respond.”

Reply: I’m so  glad you included this PS. Otherwise it would be difficult to refer to  you as “the guy who is unable to say anything to me without insulting  me.”

Until tomorrow!

Best, Joe


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