Expansion Questions (formally [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody,
Goodnight Ridge)
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sat Mar 4 07:50:16 PST 2006
Questions:
Why is Wal-Mart moving their business to the opposite side of town than
where their store currently is? Can they not just expand on that site? Its
not like they are going to suddenly have a mass increase in parking needs;
seems like "all" they want to do is expand their selection and add a
grocery.
I am not sure why they need to build in an area that has so many resident
housing (including a senior citizen village) where as the area they
currently are situated in has no residents. One of the "complaints" against
a big box is the noise and light pollution. Leaving it where it is and
expanding it there would keep it in a "business oriented" area of town hence
no need for rezoning headaches, and as noted below, allow for the traffic
which they currently see; the East Side certainly does not have the traffic
of the West Side but add a huge business there and suddenly we have bigger
headaches. Or is it that the competition from the other big boxes coming in
doesn't want them there on the West Side?
Can't the citizens have more of a say as to where these stores are put? Why
is it left up to the City Staff to make those types of decisions? We don't
elect them so no argument can be made that they are representing our
thoughts or wishes.
How does this type of planning fit in with the "New Cities" program that is
being pushed on us?
And, as long as I brought that up, why are we even considering "New Cities"
planning when the plan that is in place now is not being followed? What
makes anyone think that a new plan is going to be adhered to any more
closely than the one in place now? What new codes will have to be
introduced and why does anyone expect the City Staff to follow those when
they can't follow the ones on the books now? Whose bright idea is it to
"expand the city by building it all within a one mile area of downtown"?
Why are we supposed to be ok with a building up and filling up of the
sky-line of our town? I am NOT against growth of this area, I just don't
get why we have to suddenly look like we live on an island and the only
place to go is up.
Is the "New Cities" a forgone conclusion like so many of the City Staff's
other ideas - they just make it look like we have a say in it, when in
reality we don't? Why are we letting an out-sider decide how best to manage
out town and lands? The attitudes and planning strategy of someone from a
big city is bound to be different than that of a community such as ours,
especially since they are also from a different part of the country where,
simply, things are done differently.
Just some thoughts.
J :]
>From: joekc at adelphia.net
>To: Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com>
>CC: Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>, Donovan Arnold
><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
>Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 10:01:10 -0500
>
>Great post, Bruce!
>--
>Joe Campbell
>
>---- Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
>=============
>I imagine someone telling Dave he can't expand Paradise Ridge CDs, and I
>don't like it. But the obvious analogy to Wal-Mart that you are trying to
>make is not a clean one, in my opinion, Donovan, though I do agree with
>some of what you write.
>
>First, I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about people telling me where
>they thought I should shop. I kept buying grapes, even though the Farm
>Workers were trying to organize a boycott. I listen to the reasons for not
>shopping at Wal-Mart, and I agree with some of them, but I still shop at
>Wal-Mart on rare occasions. I try to patronize other places, and I always
>try Tri-State or Spence's, first, because I think it is important to
>patronize local businesses to help assure that more money stays in the
>community. But I admit it, my razor blades come from Wal-Mart when I don't
>have a Costco run in the offing.
>
>People may still shop at Wal-Mart, as they could at any other store that is
>operating here. I don't begrudge others the opportunity to shop at
>Wal-Mart, and I agree with the free market advocates and the need for
>business opportunities in our community, and so I agree with the right to
>expand when it comports with good planning and the law.
>
>But if Dave were in the mood to expand Paradise Ridge, by buying up one of
>his neighbors on Third Street in the heart of downtown, where retail sales
>are the dominant and preferred activity according to our zoning code and
>comprehensive plan, anybody arguing against that expansion would have
>worthless arguments, and the expansion would be approved. That is where
>your analogy falls apart, unless you were contemplating plunking the CD
>store in an area where it was not allowed -- in which case I would likely
>not support that location despite my affection for the business.
>
>I think that what many fail to recognize is that there are too kinds of
>Wal-Mart opponents out there in our community right now: those who abhor
>Wal-Mart and would deny its entry anywhere, and those who question the
>planning that went into this particular expansion effort. I am on record
>as being in the latter category. If I can find the reasons that I
>submitted to the P&Z public hearing, I will forward them to the list.
>
>Briefly, I believe that the proposed extensive commercial motor business
>designation of the Thompson property is poor planning. Such developments
>should have occurred between downtown and the state line, as the
>comprehensive plan dictated, had not the lack of vision by prior councils
>allowed most of that property along A street to become apartments, contrary
>to the comprehensive plan. Such a plan would still allow us to shop and
>draw us through downtown, making it more likely that our lovely downtown is
>a convenient stop along the way. There is still opportunity for expanded
>commercial development in the area from behind the mall to the state line,
>as was proposed at the same council meeting last June when the Thompson
>project first surfaced. Equally and maybe more important given greater
>availability, there is a much more obvious existing site than the Thompson
>property for such extensive commercial developments at the north and south
>ends of town along Highway 95, a f!
> ar better traffic corridor. The Thompson property ought, in my opinion,
>to be primarily residential (as it was designated in the comp plan until a
>bad planning decision by the prior council last June) and not destroy the
>ambience of the existing owners to the east and across the street on Ridge.
> Finally, we ought to be saving the west end of the Thompson property for
>future expansion of higher paying businesses than a shopping center; we
>ought to allow Alturas that room to expand, while fostering a pro-business
>attitude and encouraging businesses that pay at least living wages to
>locate here.
>
>Now at the risk of being a little windy here, and if you are not already
>snoozing, there is a third category of Wal-Mart opponent, in my opinion and
>of which I am also a member, and it relates to limited opportunities for
>shopping in Moscow, the almighty mantra of "market choice." I mentioned
>this on the list a while back and it engendered little discussion. I
>expected to hear a rebuttal from Jeff Harkins who is the most fervent free
>marketer on the list and my compatriot on the LEDC, and he said he was
>working on it, but I seem to have missed it.
>
>The "more market choice" category that I just mentioned might at first
>blush appear to support letting anyone expand and enter, and see what
>happens, the classic laissez faire free market approach. But what I am
>contemplating is something different.
>
>It seems to me that we are a very small community with a relatively limited
>amount of disposable income to spend in (and therefore support) the local
>stores of all types. Wal-Mart offers one kind of shopping venue, and a
>Super Wal-Mart would admittedly offer more (if perhaps of the same lower
>quality) and the most significant addition might be food. There is already
>a Wal-Mart here. There are four grocery stores, the Co-op on the high end,
>Winco on the low end (offering similar pricing to Wal-Mart from what I
>understand) and Rosauer's and Safeway in between. There will soon be a
>Super Wal-Mart a mere ten miles away in Pullman.
>
>The market choice that I am talking about is more choices for us. Why a
>Wal-Mart which we already have? Why not something else, so our consumer
>choices are enhanced more than by the expansion of the existing low-end
>product line at Wal-Mart? Why not have our city and economic development
>and business supporters work on attracting an alternative to Wal-Mart, so
>that our limited choices are not so likely to become primarily Wal-Mart?
>Why not work harder to attract something more interesting and beneficial to
>consumer choice? Why let Wal-Mart pre-empt the market and fill it up in
>the predatory fashion that it appears to be following with two supercenters
>within 10 miles? Why are we only talking about the choices that the
>entrepreneurs choose to offer and not the choices that we consumers would
>like to see? We could work toward educating other entrepreneurs and
>attracting them instead, and if we put in place rules that applied to all
>and some chose to play where Wal-Mart !
> didn't, why wouldn't we be better off by having more varied choices?
>
>Perhaps most significant to my "more consumer choices" angle, why let a
>200,000 square foot store come in and soak up the available dollars in this
>very small community and make it less likely for other more varied folks to
>enter our market? Why isn't 100,000 square feet enough in this little
>community? A size cap would allow us more choices. I have a good friend
>on the Chamber Board (who would probably prefer to remain nameless) and he
>likes to talk about how students often have the most disposable dollars to
>spend, despite their low income, and that we ought to be able to market
>Moscow and interest someone other than Wal-Mart to enter our community. If
>we are to have big boxes in our community, why not be pro-active and get us
>more real choice for Moscow's consumers, rather than more of the Wal-Mart
>we already have?
>
>Several of my MCA Board buddies who oppose Wal-Mart and big boxes in
>general characterize this as the "pig in silk pajamas" argument, because I
>do believe that large stores ought to be allowed, but play nice and look
>nice, whereas these others oppose them on general principles. I don't want
>large stores to just make the "great big sucking noise" Ross Perot once
>described, though he was talking about jobs going to Mexico and I am
>talking about more of our dollars going to Bentonville Arkansas. If we are
>to have out-of-town chains, I would much prefer to have a Costco that pays
>living wages than a Wal-Mart that does not, even if lots of those dollars
>spent go to Seattle.
>
>Lest someone misconstrue this, I don't believe we can choose one retailer
>over the other on the whim of the Council. We need rules that are applied
>fairly to all retailers and then we need to apply the rules fairly, but I
>do believe we can encourage better and more varied consumer choices through
>thoughtful legislating and pro-active and creative economic development
>efforts.
>
>Putting a halt to an ill-conceived project buys us the time to do things
>better the next time, to have a good plan in place, and to be ready for
>things instead of just reacting to the next request on a developer's wish
>list.
>
>Bruce Livingston
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Donovan Arnold
> To: Bruce and Jean Livingston ; Vision 2020
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
>
>
> "I am flabbergasted to hear Sam Goody compared favorably by anyone to
> Paradise Ridge. I find that Paradise Ridge is extremely competitive
> price-wise with Hasting's, not to mention Sam Goody."-Bruce Livingston
>
> Apparently, enough people are in agreement with you, since SM is going
>out of business and Paradise Ridge is still here. Isn't free enterprise
>great?
>
> Now image Bruce, is someone wanted to stop Paradise Ridge from expanding
>to provide you with better products and service but others that did not
>shop there were disagreement with you, opposed the expansion, and telling
>you to go to Sam Goody instead.
>
> _DJA
>
>
> Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> wrote:
> I am flabbergasted to hear Sam Goody compared favorably by anyone to
> Paradise Ridge. I find that Paradise Ridge is extremely competitive
> price-wise with Hasting's, not to mention Sam Goody. And the one thing
>that
> you get from Paradise Ridge that you do not get anywhere else, at
>least to
> the level that you receive from Dave at Paradise Ridge, is SERVICE. If
>he
> doesn't have it, he finds it, and the ordering process with Paradise
>Ridge
> is far easier than any other store in town.
>
> Bruce Livingston
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Art Deco"
> To: "Vision 2020"
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
>
>
> > Music Lovers, Economists, and Absolute Monists,
> >
> > The following words appeared in the letter below written by Jay
>Feldman
> > and
> > posted by Tom Hansen:
> >
> > "Ross tells us there is just such a store in Moscow, Paradise Ridge
> > Records,
> > but he is unwilling to patronize it because its prices are higher
>than the
> > defunct Goody."
> >
> > I believe the assumption in this quote is wrong. My experience has
>been
> > that Sam Goody had the highest CD prices on the Palouse by a
>considerable
> > margin except for advertised specials, some of the prices of these
> > specials
> > were still higher than Paradise Ridge CDs' prices.
> >
> > For example, I recently bought Moonlight Serenade by Carly Simon (a
> > collection of really old tunes for really old people like myself,
>done
> > quite
> > tastefully). The album comes with a disc which is a CD on one side
>and a
> > DVD on the other. It was priced at $19.98 at Sam Goody and $16.98
> > elsewhere. When I shopped at Paradise Ridge CDs, I found their
>prices
> > competitive -- many were below list. Discussions with others lead me
>to
> > believe that they found prices highest by far at Sam Goody also.
> >
> > Sam Goody at the PEM is closing in part because of corporate
>problems,
> > part
> > of which may be related to their pricing strategies. The local Sam
>Goody
> > also had other problems, some not fit for discussion on this list.
> >
> >
> > For those keeping track:
> >
> > There are seven, soon to be eight vacancies at the PEM:
> >
> > 1. Army Recruiters
> > 2. Marine Recruiters
> > 3. Optometrist Office
> > 4. Chocolaut
> > 5. Flower Shop
> > 6. Subway
> > 7. Market Place Gifts
> > 8. Sam Goody
> >
> > There are persistent rumors that one quite large retailer is
>seriously
> > considering leaving.
> >
> > Questions:
> >
> > 1. Where is the PEM in its life cycle?
> > 2. Did the redecoration at the PEM with the oodles of light fixtures
> > that
> > makes one think that they are in the midst of an extensive, well
>organized
> > invasion of flying saucers help or hinder the effort to attract more
> > customers?
> > 3. Did the stinginess/anti-community attitude of the PEM management
>in
> > eliminating the bus stop help or hinder the volume of business?
> > 4. If the vacancies at the PEM are an indication in some way of
> > problems
> > of some kind with the local economy, how does this reflect on plans
>for
> > the
> > big jesus shopping mall planned for just over the state line?
> > 5. Does the PEM vacancy rate have anything to do with the WalMart or
> > the
> > two proposed WalMart Super Centers?
> > 6. What, if anything, could the PEM management do to increase the
> > general
> > volume of business?
> >
> > Of course, question 3 above is quite biasly stated; however, I think
>some
> > community reflection on these questions would be helpful in
>examining and
> > shaping some community values.
> >
> >
> > Quite sadly, a downtown store which we patronized very happily, is
>soon to
> > go out of business. Although they carried a really excellent line of
> > products, gave excellent customer service, were very product
> > knowledgeable,
> > and had an extremely liberal return policy, they are being squeezed
>by the
> > internet. This is what happens: People come in and look at the
> > merchandise, get detailed information, ask technical questions,
>examine
> > closely /try on the products, then they order the products over the
> > internet.
> >
> > For many items we buy locally, we do just the opposite. We research
>using
> > the internet, then buy or special order the products locally. Local
> > merchants contribute and support many diverse community activities
>--
> > internet etailers do not. Etailers generally do not collect Idaho
>sales
> > tax
> > either.
> >
> > Are any list members are concerned about the health of several local
> > business who face heavy competition from the internet?
> >
> >
> > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > deco at moscow.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Hansen"
> > To: "Moscow Vision 2020"
> > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 6:57 AM
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
> >
> >
> >> >From today's (March 3, 2006) UI Argonaut with a special thanks to
>Jay
> >> Feldman.
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Goodnight Goody, goodnight Ridge
> >>
> >> Dear Editor,
> >>
> >> Am I the only one that noticed the irony in the placement of the
>column
> >> "Death of a pop supercenter" next to the anti-Superwalmart
>editorial?
> >> The writer, Jon Ross, laments that Sam Goody is going out of
>business
> >> nationwide (including Moscow) while he dreams of an indie-esque
>record
> >> store
> >> in Moscow to replace it. Oddly though, Ross tells us there is just
>such a
> >> store in Moscow, Paradise Ridge Records, but he is unwilling to
>patronize
> >> it
> >> because its prices are higher than the defunct Goody.
> >>
> >> Well, as consumers, we can't have it both ways. We can't have
>quality
> >> independent stores that pay more into the local tax base, offer
> >> personalized
> >> service, a greater selection, a professional staff that is paid a
>living
> >> wage, along with, as the writer expects, "cheap music." Yet, we
>expect to
> >> because Wal-Mart has responded to our deep desire for the lowest
>price by
> >> setting us on a race to the bottom where every store must match its
> >> prices
> >> regardless of what that store might offer its patrons and its
>community.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, in America, price has become the sole factor in
>deciding
> >> which stores we frequent. As the world's largest retailer, Wal-Mart
>can
> >> offer the lowest prices possible but at a high cost to communities
>like
> >> Moscow. Shoppers have come to assume the Wal-Mart price is the
>proper
> >> market
> >> price and the Wal-Mart price thus is the price we should expect to
>pay.
> >> Because of such a mentality, shoppers - including Ross, at his own
> >> admission
> >> - will not pay more than this false standard. As a result, when
>forced to
> >> compete with a Super Wal-Mart, small independent stores, like many
>in
> >> Moscow, go out of business and small towns are left with the
>impersonal,
> >> poor selection, tax-base draining, Super Wal-Marts, just the
>position
> >> Ross
> >> laments.
> >>
> >> Certainly paying a bit extra is difficult for many, and luckily we
>have
> >> the
> >> independent chain WinCo to provide us with groceries that beat any
>Super
> >> Wal-Mart's prices and an existing Wal-Mart for those who wish to
>shop
> >> there.
> >> What we don't need is a Wal-Mart Supercenter that will reinforce
>this
> >> "lowest price at any cost" mentality.
> >>
> >> Ross laments not having a quality, all-music store in Moscow, when
>in
> >> fact
> >> we do have one. Ross needs to do what so many of us need to do,
>overcome
> >> our
> >> addiction to low price and support the local businesses whose tax
> >> revenues
> >> support us.
> >>
> >> Jay P. Feldman
> >> Department of philosophy
> >>
> >>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >>
> >> Tom Hansen
> >> Moscow, Idaho
> >>
> >>
> >> **************************************************************
> >>
> >> "A bad cause will ever be supported by bad means and bad men."
> >>
> >> - Thomas Paine (English Writer, 1737-1809)
> >>
> >> **************************************************************
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____________________________________________________
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> > communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
>
>
>
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