[Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion
Michael
metzler at moscow.com
Sat Jun 24 20:27:00 PDT 2006
Paul,
I would concur with Joe's criticism of, and his agreement with, this answer
from Gary Crabtree - it is not clear how inconsistent Gary Crabtree's point
of view is with mine in terms of what we have both communicated today
outside of what Joe has already noted. Perhaps it would have also been good
to point out that Crabtree and Donovan (sp?) comprise another unique
perspective and method to all of this. They are two brave souls that have
the ability to swim in a different direction from the rest of the fish;
however, some of us have grown concerned that they are determined to swim in
the opposite direction no matter what. Whereas some around here want to
critique and defend all named individuals in this discussion according to
the merits of any particular case (e.g. Joe, Chas, Rose, etc) Donovan and
Crabtree have taken on the task of defending Wilson and Christ Church
against any possible criticism - as far as I can tell; and it is not clear
they really want to take this discussion forum seriously to begin with
(Donovan calls this list derogatory names while posting). This is a noble
goal perhaps, but one that often requires a second opinion.in my opinion :
-) They do help keep us all humble, but for the kirkers. It was after all
just today that the gospel-preaching kirker Princess just told a gentle and
kind, white-haired professor (in a game of subterfuge once this professor
made a good point about the theology of the Kirk): "You'd be declared
mentally incompetent to stand trial." Wow, now there's some language
"seasoned with grace." I'm sure the professor is very relieved that the
Kirk-Christians would not put him to death since they would first declare
him mentally insane.
Michael Metzler
Mr. Rumelhart, allow me to offer up a slightly different perspective. I am
not and never have been a member of Christ Church and am in no way beholding
to them. I have lived in this community for over four decades, back when the
only Wilson I was personally aware of was the pediatrician who introduced me
to the peculiar and startling convention of "turn your head and cough." Like
Joe, I agree with some of their views and not others. I believe that like
almost all other religions, C.C. believes that it has a handle on the truth
and would very much like to share it with as many members of the community
as possible. Not out of malice or a desire for conquest but rather the
desire to gift others with something that they think is exciting and
wonderful. I have dealt with many members of this congregation, including
those that have been deemed "insiders" by others on this list, over the last
few years and have found most all of them to be pleasant people who have
never tried to "push their views" on me in any way despite the many
opportunities they might have had. They have never shown up on my door step
unannounced or arrived at my place of business with pamphlets in hand,
unlike some other denominations which also share our little berg. They have,
on the few occasions that I have asked, answered questions I've put to them
directly and politely. What you witness on vision 2020 is more then a little
strange. You see a group of a couple dozen, mostly rational (with a few
glaring exceptions) people who have for reasons not clearly explained,
singled out this faith community for "special" attention. Even when I have
sat down for face to face discussion with some of these folks I have not
received a clear or compelling answer as to why the animus for Wilson and
friends and not other groups which hold similar worldviews. I believe that
were you to make your inquiry's out in the general populace of Moscow you
would not find the level of hostility that you see exhibited here.
Regards,
G. Crabtree
P.S Welcome to Moscow. Aside from this forum, it's a friendly place to
reside.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion
> Paul writes: "Opponents of Christ Church: Do you believe that Freedom
> of Religion trumps your own personal views of their theology? Are you
> willing to live and let live if they truly wish not to push their
> views on others?"
>
> No and yes; well, sort of. I have no fear that the folks from CC are
> going to "push their views" on me. Some of their views I already
> accept and the ones that I don't I am unlikely to accept no matter how
> hard they push. So this isn't really the issue.
>
> I have a hard time believing that the more vocal members of CC -- Doug
> Wilson, Dale Courtney (spell check?), Ed Iverson -- are just
> expressing their views. Check out the posting on Vision 2020 from
> Princess Taro Tanaka, dated Friday, June 23, 2006 10:44 PM. Do you
> think he's merely expressing his views about "sodomites"? Or is he
> using this venue as an opportunity to fling insults at a group that he
> despises, all in the name of Christ? When Wilson suggests that slavery
> wasn't as bad as we thought it was, is this a viewpoint that he is
> bringing up for debate? Ask your African-American friends what they think
about this "debate".
>
> Keep in mind that many of the critics of CC are Christians. So it
> isn't really a battle of one religious group against the
leftist-Intoleristas.
> That is just a smoke-screen.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> =============
> I am new here, so forgive my questions. I've read a bit on this list
> of the back-and-forth postings concerning this one church and it's
> left me confused. I've read the article in the Blot about the church, as
well.
> I should also mention that one of my closest friends is a member of
> the church, even though we rarely if ever agree on theology.
>
> What it all boils down to for me is this one simple question: Does
> the leadership of Christ Church respect freedom of religion? Are they
> pushing some kind of agenda to make over Moscow into a Christian-only
> area?
>
> The rest of the discussions don't interest me, for the most part. My
> theological views are pretty much orthogonal to those of Christ Church
> members as I understand them, so it's pointless for me to debate about
> them. I could care less if they serve alcohol at Trinity Fest, I'll
> leave that to the people whose job it is to make those decisions. The
> submission of women topic doesn't bother me because the women of that
> church don't seem to have any problems with it. I don't even really
> care about the whole Sitler thing because there are so many
> inconsistencies between both versions of events that I'll probably
> never know what really happened or who should have done what when.
>
> If we freedom-loving people of Moscow practice what we preach, then
> why be up in arms about their views? Why worry if they are successful?
> More power to them.
>
> However, if they are truly trying to stifle freedom of religion in
> others here in the community then I will be worried.
>
> Members of Christ Church: Do you wish to rework Moscow into a Christ
> Church-derived paradise? Or do you believe fully in Free Will?
>
> Opponents of Christ Church: Do you believe that Freedom of Religion
> trumps your own personal views of their theology? Are you willing to
> live and let live if they truly wish not to push their views on others?
>
> Paul
>
> If I'm being presumptious here, I'm sorry. I came here hoping for
> reasoned debate and see mostly mud-slinging and name-calling by both
> sides.
>
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> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
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