[Vision2020] called up from the minors

[keely emerinemix]

Referring to Michael's comment to Andreas that if submission is a priori 
immoral to someone, it then constitutes a logical argument against 
Christianity:

I am not a "Biblical utilitarian," that is, someone who wants to conform the 
Bible to a particular view of culture or practice in the desperate -- and 
vain -- hope that more souls will be won.  The truth of Scripture will, I 
believe, not only stand on its own virtue but is also a far more effective 
means of societal and individual transformation than my desperate attempts 
to mold it into something that seemingly would help the process along.

That said, Michael makes the above point at the risk not only of elevating a 
secondary issue (individual interpretations of Biblical submission and its 
execution) to primary status as an essential of Christian doctrine, but in 
doing so also erects a stumbling block to the faith that isn't necessary -- 
that "women submitting to men," in its role as a "primary" doctrine, brings 
about the kind of repugnance to many that will cause them to forego an 
interest in discovering Christ for themselves.  After all, if Jesus is 
portrayed as a sexist, however benignly, and if Christian culture is ripe 
with examples of male domination and abuse, I'd run, too.  So would anyone 
with a gut-check and heart conviction against patriarchal rule -- which is 
why so many people ignore Christ when it's Christians and Christiandom who 
cause them problems.

keely

From: "Michael" <metzler at moscow.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: [Vision2020] submission
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 09:56:08 -0700

ACS writes:



The books of the BIble were written over a span of over 1500 years, in
Hebrew and Aramaic, under radicaly different forms of government, and
reflect radically different understandings of the nature of God.

Asking what the "true" answer to "what does  the Bible say about X?"

is, to me, like querying any selection of documents written on one topic
over 1500 years about what the "true" nature of the topic is.





Me:



I can understand your hesitancy.  However, Keely and I have been speaking of
primarily a Pauline view of submission, and we have gone no further than the
teachings of Jesus and Peter from there.  We have also been focusing in on
Christian Orthodoxy, which is typically granted in academia as providing a
singular, broad tradition-a tradition that embraces the teaching of the New
Testament.  So I still think that we can debate on what the New Testament
and Christian Tradition's general understanding is on this topic.  And I
still think that if the kind of submission I'm speaking of (which we haven't
fully nailed yet) is a priori immoral for you, what you have is a good
argument against the truth of Christianity.



Further, the social analysis of the pursuer/pursued construct can be
discussed independent of the Christian tradition or scripture.  This is even
worthy of a discussion involving secular anthropology, cognitive science,
and biology.



Michael





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