[Vision2020] The pledge Controversy

Fri Jan 27 13:21:58 PST 2006

Chris writes: "Ann Coulter and Ted Kennedy both make me sick."  I don't 
necessarily agree about Ted Kennedy, but if Ann Coulter and Howard Stern got 
into the ring together, and neither one came out alive, that would be a good 
thing.                                                                       

                                                     Carl Westberg Jr.

>From: Chris Storhok <cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us>
>To: "'joekc at adelphia.net'" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:04:25 -0900
>
>Joe,
>
>At no time have I ever seen anyone forced to recite the Pledge.  If you 
>look
>around at just about any government meeting where the Pledge is being
>recited you will see people who are not participating.  That is their
>choice, I know of people who for religious purposes will not ever under any
>circumstances utter the Pledge, swear on a Bible, or take any other oath.  
>I
>personally do not condemn those actions, I respect those who stand for 
>their
>beliefs, to do otherwise would make me no better than a petty tyrant and
>certainly would violate my convictions of what being an American is all
>about.
>
>Liberty also means the right to stand silently, liberty means the right to
>protest; liberty means dissension is not only allowed but encouraged.
>However, liberty also means that you should respect others who want to
>express their feelings of patriotism, support the President, and support 
>our
>troops.   Nothing troubles me more than the current hatred and disrespect
>that people on the extreme ends of the political spectrum have for those 
>who
>they disagree with.  Ann Coulter and Ted Kennedy both make me sick.
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>From: joekc at adelphia.net [mailto:joekc at adelphia.net]
>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:45 AM
>To: Chris Storhok
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com; 'Phil Nisbet'; privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
>
>
>
>Chris,
>
>These are very moving words. I find little to disagree with.
>
>But I will ask, which is more important: the symbolism of the Pledge or the
>liberties noted within? I say the latter. Without the liberties the Pledge
>is meaningless. A world with those liberties yet no Pledge is a better 
>world
>than one with the Pledge yet no liberties.
>
>That said, we should respect the decisions that adults make about when and
>under what circumstances they choose to say the Pledge. If we cannot
>guarantee this basic right, exactly what liberties are you suggesting that
>the Pledge stands for?
>--
>Joe Campbell
>
>---- Chris Storhok wrote:
>
>=============
>Phil,
>The symbolism of the pledge took on a whole new meaning to me at 7:00pm on
>September 11, 2001. I had to attend a Deary City Council meeting that night
>to discuss preliminary plans to convert the old Lions Hall and nearby
>fertilizer facility into a community center. There was talk all day of
>canceling the meeting in light of earlier events; however, Mayor Foster
>would have none of that. The city hall was filled (not hard to do in Deary
>but considering that day it was still a nice sight) as the Mayor, the City
>council, and all of us in the audience stood and recited the pledge. There
>was not a dry eye in the place but still government and life went on.
>
>The pledge may be a rote phrase to many, it may be offensive to others, it
>was written by a socialist, it has been battered around, beaten, cursed,
>ignored, and pronounced antiquated; however, in the end it is as you say, a
>symbol that unites us to serve a common cause, defense of liberty and the
>defense of our nation. It is not perfect, is there anything earthly that
>is? It is offensive to somebody, is there anything that is not? It is
>though a powerful symbol of our nation. It is the only statement of
>allegiance and commitment to our nation that most Americans ever state
>(since a vast majority of Americans do not serve in the military).
>
>Of any time I have ever said the pledge, that night in Deary less than five
>years ago was one of the most meaningful and oddly enough, wonderful,
>experiences in government service I have ever had. I only hope that those
>on this list who condemn repetition of that simple statement can remember
>back those few years ago to your feelings of that day, and realize that in
>the end all we really can do is to unite ourselves to move our imperfect
>experiment in governance forward to succeeding generations.
>
>Chris Storhok
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:08 AM
>To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
>
>J
>
>Morning Formation is hugely rich in symbolism. You did not need to say a
>pledge because the other symbolic things were there in spades.
>
>Then there is also the larger formation parades to add to your sense of
>place and you also have reveille and recall, stop and turn to the location
>of the flag going up or down and salute. The company guidon, the battalion
>and regimental colors, the ordering of events. . .
>
>So the reminders of your place within the unit and its function were
>constant.
>
>Verwen the pay this bill and do not pay that one that form the basis of 
>most
>
>council or commission meetings, its nice to think that their is some call 
>to
>
>civic duty. That is what the people who want the pledge are looking for, a
>symbolism that calls the proceeding into its place.
>
>Can a unit that does not make formation ve effective in combat? Sure, but
>its more likely to be a unit through the sense that formation brings. Even
>with Formations and the rest that unit can still break down and members of
>it can and do screw the pooch, but its a form that tends to assist most of
>us.
>
>So, the pledge is not the only thing that can add that form and symbolism 
>to
>
>council meetings, but it is one of the possible forms. Just like formation
>telling a troop that he now has to put aside his persnal desires to act as 
>a
>
>unit, some opening form at the start of a council meeting is there to give
>that council the sense that they now are to put aside their personal 
>agendas
>
>and act as the unit charged with overseeing the public weal for the people
>who elected them.
>
>Lacking such a symbol will not end good government any more than lack of a
>formation will make a fighting unit unable to fight, but time has told us
>that some forms increase the odds of better performance. Pick your symbol,
>but remember that for many the Pledge is one of the more powerful.
>
>Phil Nisbet
>
>
>
> >From: "J Ford"
> >To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
> >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:30:33 -0800
> >
> >While I agree with most of what you say, I must add that those that are
> >gripping the loudest about the pledge not being said (a) do not 
>themselves
> >make that kind of demand of themselves; (b) do not attend the majority of
> >the meetings held at City Hall; (c) gripe because that is what they do
> >best.
> >
> >I personally do not see the need to open each and every single meeting 
>with
>
> >the pledge; just like I did not understand us having to say it EVERY 
>single
>
> >day at school. As I have stated before and others have stated, saying it
> >does NOT in any way, shape or form guarantee that the person will follow
> >the pledge, adhere to its standards, continue to be accountable to the
> >citizens of this town/country or even believe in what it says.
> >
> >I like Nancy's idea of opening with some kind of statement to set the 
>tone,
>
> >but if the Council didn't do that I would not be offended or hurt or feel
> >like they were not being loyal to this country or city.
> >
> >During my time in the military, when we would fall in, go through
> >inspection, report for duty, we did not say the pledge or sing the 
>anthem.
>
> >That did not make us any less loyal or dutiful to this country or the
> >citizens.
> >
> >Seriously, where were the people four years ago when the pledge or 
>opening
> >statements were not even thought of being done? Why this fuss now? I
> >think a mole hill is being made into a mountain simply for joy of doing 
>so
> >by those doing it.
> >
> >My thoughts - take them for what they're worth.
> >
> >J :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Phil Nisbet"
> >>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
> >>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:41:22 -0800
> >>
> >>I had a say earlier and figured that it was sufficient to the day, but 
>the
>
> >>huge volume of traffic on this issue has me scratching my head.
> >>
> >>There are some with honest opinions here on both sides. Chas, for an
> >>example, is a non-conformist and hates all things related to pledges. 
>His
>
> >>opinion on the subject and his feelings are valid and need to be
> >>respected. Similarly, those who want the pledge said have solid feelings
> >>on the subject and valid desires to see the pledge said as a symbol of
> >>their own love of country and they deserve as much respect as Chas does.
> >>
> >>One of the people I had dinner with last night had something very valid 
>to
>
> >>say. He noted that at his age he still tripped over the portion of the
> >>pledge that was added in the 1950's and that he had an easier time of it
> >>when it was not there. He still preferred to have some sort of a
> >>patriotic opening to a governmental proceeding.
> >>
> >>Nancy says that she wants to vary things as opening statements before 
>the
> >>meeting to set the tone. I would say that is fine, one meeting the
> >>pledge, the next meeting the national anthem, the next a brief patriotic
> >>poem, what ever. What ever the pick for opening, pledge or song or poem
> >>or speech portion, it needs to reflect civic participation in the great
> >>American political process.
> >>
> >>This need not have been a controversy had this idea been circulated in 
>the
>
> >>first place. If at the first meeting it had been made clear that that 
>was
>
> >>the plan, I do not see the kind of concerns that have been aired. The
> >>problem occurs when actions to make changes are made without the public
> >>being informed, in effect, the public having to discover by word of 
>mouth
> >>and Listserver that a change has happened without their knowledge.
> >>
> >>So perhaps we can get Nancy to post her ideas and she can also inform 
>the
> >>papers with a list of the openings she intends and the controversy can 
>die
>
> >>down. Heck, she can open a suggestion box for citizen preferred openings
> >>to council meetings and then everybody can get a crack at picking one.
> >>
> >>I nominate,"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world"
> >>Socrates, in hopes of getting Chas and his kindred spirits into the 
>idea.
> >>
> >>Phil Nisbet
> >>
> >>PS On the other hand there have been one heck of a lot of not very 
>honest
>
> >>answers on this subject. Those of you who expressed things not your own
> >>opinion just to make political hay know who you are and that is from all
> >>sides. Its exceptionally bad when an official plays finger pointing as 
>if
>
> >>that offical was not involved.
> >>
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>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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