[Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
Chris Storhok
cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us
Fri Jan 27 12:43:02 PST 2006
No, but for me personally that date and that instance had meaning for me and
others in Deary that night. Due to my age events before 1975 have little
meaning to me, no offense to those who are older than I those events are
mere history. Desert Storm had meaning but no sense of loss; each hostage
crises brings a moment of reflection; each war small and short like Grenada,
or large like the current Iraq war reminds me of the sacrifice made by
others so I can be free. I would not be human if I did not feel for their
loss and thank them in my heart for their sacrifice.
Do I say the pledge everyday now? Nope. Do I say it when I am at Assembly
meetings for the Fairbanks North Star Borough, Fairbanks, or North Pole city
hall meetings or other government meetings? Yep. Does it have meaning and
value in my life? You bet.
As a civil servant it reminds me of why I am there, the pledge focuses me on
the task at hand and always reminds me that the interests of those who are
in support or in opposition to my position are interests of Americans who,
like I, want to see a better nation.
Does it bring tears to my eyes today? Nope. Does the Mayor of Moscow
decision to not say the pledge cause me grief? Nope. Is it a requirement to
show loyalty and patriotism to our nation? Nope.
Does Moscow have issues that are bigger than the pledge? Heck yea.
Does Moscow need a light at Mountain View and D? Heck yea, I always hated
that intersection because of the confluence of two busy roads and children
from the Jr. High, the elementary school and the pool.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: J Ford [mailto:privatejf32 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:13 AM
To: cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
So let me get this straight - before 9/11, the pledge was just something
people said occasionally and that was ok (despite the WWI, WWII, Korea,
Vietnam, and Desert Storm, having Americans taken hostage for over 180 days,
having an attempt made on the WTC before 9/11/01, etc.) But, after 9/11/01,
saying the pledge every day, every meeting is a requirement to show loyalty
and patriotism? Am I reading you correctly?
(Does it still bring tears to your eyes when you say it now, almost five
years later?)
I am not for/against the idea of the pledge at the beginning of meetings, I
just think there are other things that this town could/should worry about.
To restate John's concern, what about a 4-way stop at D and Mt. View?
Anyone given THAT much thought lately? Personally, I'd love to see at least
a sign there, if a light is totally out of the question. But, I'd also like
to see sidewalks being extended down that entire bit of road so the kids are
not in the traffic lanes when walking to/from school or the Youth Center.
Its been about 6 years since someone was killed on that road, but why wait
until someone else gets mowed down? And is there some reason we don't have
a crossing guard at D/Mt. View during the school hours? Seems to me that
would help alleviate some of the traffic issues there. Certainly where the
children are concerned.
Just some thoughts.
J :]
>From: Chris Storhok <cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us>
>To: 'Phil Nisbet' <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>, privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:44:26 -0900
>
>Phil,
>The symbolism of the pledge took on a whole new meaning to me at 7:00pm on
>September 11, 2001. I had to attend a Deary City Council meeting that
>night
>to discuss preliminary plans to convert the old Lions Hall and nearby
>fertilizer facility into a community center. There was talk all day of
>canceling the meeting in light of earlier events; however, Mayor Foster
>would have none of that. The city hall was filled (not hard to do in Deary
>but considering that day it was still a nice sight) as the Mayor, the City
>council, and all of us in the audience stood and recited the pledge. There
>was not a dry eye in the place but still government and life went on.
>
>The pledge may be a rote phrase to many, it may be offensive to others, it
>was written by a socialist, it has been battered around, beaten, cursed,
>ignored, and pronounced antiquated; however, in the end it is as you say, a
>symbol that unites us to serve a common cause, defense of liberty and the
>defense of our nation. It is not perfect, is there anything earthly that
>is? It is offensive to somebody, is there anything that is not? It is
>though a powerful symbol of our nation. It is the only statement of
>allegiance and commitment to our nation that most Americans ever state
>(since a vast majority of Americans do not serve in the military).
>
>Of any time I have ever said the pledge, that night in Deary less than five
>years ago was one of the most meaningful and oddly enough, wonderful,
>experiences in government service I have ever had. I only hope that those
>on this list who condemn repetition of that simple statement can remember
>back those few years ago to your feelings of that day, and realize that in
>the end all we really can do is to unite ourselves to move our imperfect
>experiment in governance forward to succeeding generations.
>
>Chris Storhok
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:08 AM
>To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
>
>J
>
>Morning Formation is hugely rich in symbolism. You did not need to say a
>pledge because the other symbolic things were there in spades.
>
>Then there is also the larger formation parades to add to your sense of
>place and you also have reveille and recall, stop and turn to the location
>of the flag going up or down and salute. The company guidon, the battalion
>and regimental colors, the ordering of events. . .
>
>So the reminders of your place within the unit and its function were
>constant.
>
>Verwen the pay this bill and do not pay that one that form the basis of
>most
>
>council or commission meetings, its nice to think that their is some call
>to
>
>civic duty. That is what the people who want the pledge are looking for, a
>symbolism that calls the proceeding into its place.
>
>Can a unit that does not make formation ve effective in combat? Sure, but
>its more likely to be a unit through the sense that formation brings. Even
>with Formations and the rest that unit can still break down and members of
>it can and do screw the pooch, but its a form that tends to assist most of
>us.
>
>So, the pledge is not the only thing that can add that form and symbolism
>to
>
>council meetings, but it is one of the possible forms. Just like formation
>telling a troop that he now has to put aside his persnal desires to act as
>a
>
>unit, some opening form at the start of a council meeting is there to give
>that council the sense that they now are to put aside their personal
>agendas
>
>and act as the unit charged with overseeing the public weal for the people
>who elected them.
>
>Lacking such a symbol will not end good government any more than lack of a
>formation will make a fighting unit unable to fight, but time has told us
>that some forms increase the odds of better performance. Pick your symbol,
>but remember that for many the Pledge is one of the more powerful.
>
>Phil Nisbet
>
>
>
> >From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
> >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:30:33 -0800
> >
> >While I agree with most of what you say, I must add that those that are
> >gripping the loudest about the pledge not being said (a) do not
>themselves
> >make that kind of demand of themselves; (b) do not attend the majority of
> >the meetings held at City Hall; (c) gripe because that is what they do
> >best.
> >
> >I personally do not see the need to open each and every single meeting
>with
>
> >the pledge; just like I did not understand us having to say it EVERY
>single
>
> >day at school. As I have stated before and others have stated, saying it
> >does NOT in any way, shape or form guarantee that the person will follow
> >the pledge, adhere to its standards, continue to be accountable to the
> >citizens of this town/country or even believe in what it says.
> >
> >I like Nancy's idea of opening with some kind of statement to set the
>tone,
>
> >but if the Council didn't do that I would not be offended or hurt or feel
> >like they were not being loyal to this country or city.
> >
> >During my time in the military, when we would fall in, go through
> >inspection, report for duty, we did not say the pledge or sing the
>anthem.
>
> >That did not make us any less loyal or dutiful to this country or the
> >citizens.
> >
> >Seriously, where were the people four years ago when the pledge or
>opening
> >statements were not even thought of being done? Why this fuss now? I
> >think a mole hill is being made into a mountain simply for joy of doing
>so
> >by those doing it.
> >
> >My thoughts - take them for what they're worth.
> >
> >J :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
> >>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
> >>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:41:22 -0800
> >>
> >>I had a say earlier and figured that it was sufficient to the day, but
>the
>
> >>huge volume of traffic on this issue has me scratching my head.
> >>
> >>There are some with honest opinions here on both sides. Chas, for an
> >>example, is a non-conformist and hates all things related to pledges.
>His
>
> >>opinion on the subject and his feelings are valid and need to be
> >>respected. Similarly, those who want the pledge said have solid
>feelings
> >>on the subject and valid desires to see the pledge said as a symbol of
> >>their own love of country and they deserve as much respect as Chas does.
> >>
> >>One of the people I had dinner with last night had something very valid
>to
>
> >>say. He noted that at his age he still tripped over the portion of the
> >>pledge that was added in the 1950's and that he had an easier time of it
> >>when it was not there. He still preferred to have some sort of a
> >>patriotic opening to a governmental proceeding.
> >>
> >>Nancy says that she wants to vary things as opening statements before
>the
> >>meeting to set the tone. I would say that is fine, one meeting the
> >>pledge, the next meeting the national anthem, the next a brief patriotic
> >>poem, what ever. What ever the pick for opening, pledge or song or poem
> >>or speech portion, it needs to reflect civic participation in the great
> >>American political process.
> >>
> >>This need not have been a controversy had this idea been circulated in
>the
>
> >>first place. If at the first meeting it had been made clear that that
>was
>
> >>the plan, I do not see the kind of concerns that have been aired. The
> >>problem occurs when actions to make changes are made without the public
> >>being informed, in effect, the public having to discover by word of
>mouth
> >>and Listserver that a change has happened without their knowledge.
> >>
> >>So perhaps we can get Nancy to post her ideas and she can also inform
>the
> >>papers with a list of the openings she intends and the controversy can
>die
>
> >>down. Heck, she can open a suggestion box for citizen preferred
>openings
> >>to council meetings and then everybody can get a crack at picking one.
> >>
> >>I nominate,"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world"
> >>Socrates, in hopes of getting Chas and his kindred spirits into the
>idea.
> >>
> >>Phil Nisbet
> >>
> >>PS On the other hand there have been one heck of a lot of not very
>honest
>
> >>answers on this subject. Those of you who expressed things not your own
> >>opinion just to make political hay know who you are and that is from all
> >>sides. Its exceptionally bad when an official plays finger pointing as
>if
>
> >>that offical was not involved.
> >>
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