[Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century

[joekc at adelphia.net]

The only thing I claimed to have proven was that the free market does not always yield quality or choice. Since many proponents seem to claim otherwise this -- admittedly minor -- point seems significant. I was by no means suggesting that my explanation of why KB toys went out of business was the right one, or that your's was wrong, or that Donovan's was wrong. I have no problem admitting to the world that you, and Donovan, and Jeff Harkins know far more about economic theory than I do. You are reading more into my words than I intended you to. I was merely responding to a challenge. And by your own admission this -- admittedly minor -- challenge was successfully met. The free market does not always lead to an increase in quality and choice.
--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" wrote:

=============
Joe, Your correct that I asked for example of an inferior business besting a superior one but that is about all you got right. The way I read your response is I don't care how many facts you present, everything I say is right and everything you say is wrong. It seems clear to me that any further discussion will boil down to my facts vs. your feelings and Lord knows I'll run out of facts long before we plumb the depths of your feelings. If you would like to bring this discussion out of the realm of the 'touchy- feely" hows about you explain where my "analysis" is incorrect. I am afraid that what your example "proves" is that KB Toys could'nt make it in this market and is gone. I think that you might be doing a better job of making my point then I am.

G. Crabtree



----- Original Message -----
From: joekc at adelphia.net
To: g. crabtree
Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly


Gary,

You asked for an example where an inferior business beat out a superior one and I gave one. You might analyze why KB Toys is no longer in Moscow differently than I would but the main point is that they are not here any longer and the average person has fewer choices because of that. What the example proves is that the free market does not always lead to the best businesses and the most choices. That claim is nothing but a rhetorical slogan.
--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" wrote:

=============
Joe, Excellent try but short of the mark I'm afraid. Stand alone toy stores are struggling everywhere for a variety of reasons, not the least of them being the internet. Perhaps we should argue against E- commerce? Almost all of the complaints that you make would apply, plus no local jobs, no local taxes, and all money made goes out of the area. Moscow does not have a population large enough to effectively support a toy store. KB toys was undergoing a certain amount of financial disorganization at the time the local store closed. The latest trends in toys tends toward computer/video games which are heavily marketed at other retail outlets such as Circuit City, Hastings, Costco, Shopko etc. And last but not least, the fact that you are using a subjective, anecdotal example. If it were valid then I would think that Hodgins would have been toast long ago. Wal Mart sells all the products that they do, (prescriptions, OTC remedies, toys, sundries ) and yet they still exist. Might this be attributed to superior service, good product selection (toys) and an over all commitment to their customers?

I am rather fond of Moscow also. We already have a Wal Mart and I'm fairly sure that it isn't killing us. Plucking out of thin air numbers like 98% 2% and attaching them to a poison pill arguments is pure sophistry.

Try agin?
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: joekc at adelphia.net
To: g. crabtree
Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 AM
Subject: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly


Gary,

I didn't think Mr. Schou's analogy blew but here is a real world example of an inferior business beating out a superior competitor. The mall used to have a toy store: Kay-Be Toys, or something like that. I went there frequently when my son was younger and my wife let me spoil him more. Wal-Mart drove Kay-Bee Toys out of business. Kay-Be Toys had a far superior selection of toys and was by any set of standards a better toy store than Wal-Mart. (Neither are as good as Hodgins Drug Store but that's another issue.) What happened was that kids go to toy stores with their parents but parents buy other things besides toys, things that are not sold at Kay-Be Toys. In short, Wal-Mart offers low-cost and convenience. That is it. It is 'superior' to other stores for these two reasons only. But that is enough to drive out some businesses. Once those businsesses leave, the folks in Moscow will have fewer choices, not more choices.

You note that "many communities that are co-existing with the worlds largest retailer to the betterment of its residents." But many are not. It was noted in Tom Trail's post that two communities like ours were "sucked dry" after a Super Wal-Mart moved in. For the sake of argument suppose that 98 communities like ours were not sucked dry. Would you take a pill that had only a 2% chance of killing you if you didn't need it and you were getting along fine without it? I don't think so. I love Moscow and low-cost and convenience are not enough reason for me to risk sucking it dry.


--
Joe Campbell



---- "g. crabtree" wrote:

=============
Mr. Schou, Your analogy blows. It seems clear to me that you have very
little understanding of how an 'all in" bet works but rather than educate
you on the finer points of poker allow me to propose an analogy of my own. A
player comes to the game and bluffs outrageously each and every hand. Soon,
his fellow gamblers see him for what he is and call him. His weak hands are
revealed, his resources dwindle and very soon he is out of the game.

This appears to be the tactic of the common garden variety wal-mart
opponent. Exclaim loudly how WM will be the ruination of civilization and
will bring about the heat death of the universe and so on. When folks see
that there are many communities that are co-existing with the worlds largest
retailer to the betterment of its residents our protester is revealed as at
best, wrong and at worst, a dupe.

Getting back to the original heart of the discussion, hows about some real
world examples of inferior business' beating out superior competitors. I'll
be waiting, watching the pages of my calendar flit by.

gc


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Schou"
To: "g. crabtree"
Cc: ;
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doug Jones Says It Clearly


>You are right about my confidence in a free market. Perhaps you could give
>me a few examples where an inferior business beat out a superior one.

Let me use a poker analogy. If I had a trillion dollars, played poker
for a living, and won every poker game I played by going "all in" on
every hand, would I be the best poker player that ever lived? Hint:
no, I would not.

This is Wal*Mart's business model: saturate the market, make
monopsonic agreements with suppliers, and run as thin a margin as
possible in new stores until all the other business goes under. Is
this a good business strategy? Yes. Does it contribute to market
efficiency -- which is generally how a "superior business" is
understood to work? No. It does not.

-- ACS



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20060127/9eec617e/attachment.htm