[Vision2020] A Woman's Right to Choose (where she shops) Hangs
inthe Balance
joekc at adelphia.net
joekc at adelphia.net
Wed Jan 18 16:53:45 PST 2006
This is a good response, Donovan!
First, you answer my first question with a 'No.' You think that some of the disagreements in the abortion debate are moral disagreements -- not just metaphysical disagreements.
Second, you note that there are two issues here: a moral issue, and a legal issue. As you see it, one might think that abortion is immoral yet say that abortion should not be illegal.
Since I was raised Catholic yet remain a liberal I tend to agree that such a view is not contradictory. Clinton held such a view but some folks used it against him. So I wonder about opposition to the view.
Best, Joe
---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> I do not believe in making abortion illegal not because it is or is not a human being. I think it is obvious that it is a developing human. To me, life is so precious that if there is any possibility it could be a person, it is worthy of saving. With perhaps the exception of the Bush administration, most people value life enough to error on the side of life when there is any question.
>
> My opposition to illegalizing abortion rests in two facts. First, giving the government control of our reproductive freedoms WILL result in the government eventually abusing that power, such as forced abortions. And second, it is impossible to force anyone to carry a baby to term if they truly do not want it without stripping people of basic human freedoms of what we, eat, consume, where we go, how we behave etc. In other words, it is not enforceable without stripping humans of all that is valuable and makes life worth living.
>
> _DJA
>
> PS, I am still waiting for response on why I, a poor American, should subsidize your more costly preferences in a free marketplace economy?
>
> joekc at adelphia.net wrote: Today I asked this question in my undergraduate seminar on Action, Ethics, and Responsibility:
>
> Is the disagreement about abortion primarily a disagreement about moral claims or a disagreement about metaphysical claims (one with ethical implications, no doubt)?
>
> We all agree -- I think -- that innocent persons should not be needlessly put to death. Isn't one primary disagreement in the abortion debate about what it means to be a person, which is a metaphysical disagreement? (I'm not trying to diminish the claim but to locate it.)
>
> Best, Joe
>
> ---- J Ford
> wrote:
> > Just for the sake of clarification ONLY, what does this mean:
> >
> >
> > " I find it interesting that you believe so much in a woman's right to
> > choose to abort a fetus, OR ANOTHER DEVELOPING HUMAN..."
> >
> >
> > J :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Donovan Arnold
> > >To: Nick Gier , vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Woman's Right to Choose (where she shops) Hangs
> > >inthe Balance
> > >Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:18:15 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >Nick,
> > >
> > > I find it interesting that you believe so much in a woman's right to
> > >choose to abort a fetus, or another developing human, but yet at the same
> > >time oppose her right to shop at a store of her choosing, like Wal-Mart.
> > >
> > > It just seems ironic, doesn't it?
> > >
> > > Mind you, I am opposed to legally preventing abortion. But if I had to
> > >prioritize limiting a women's right to choice, it would be to limit her
> > >options to a kill a developing human being over that of where she buys
> > >hamburger buns.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > -DJA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Nick Gier wrote: Greetings:
> > >
> > > Before this goes out to the usual venues, I wanted Visionaries to have
> > >a first read if they wish. If you find typos or more substantial points
> > >to debate, let me know. I'm glad that I can spell that last phrase better
> > >than Doug Farris.
> > >
> > > A WOMAN’S RIGHT TO CHOOSE HANGS IN THE BALANCE
> > >
> > > By Nick Gier
> > >
> > >
> > > During his confirmation hearings many Americans were relieved
> > >to hear that John Roberts believes that the Constitution contains a right
> > >to privacy. He also considers Roe vs. Wade to be “settled law.†In
> > >recent hearings to replace Sandra Day O’Connor on the Supreme Court,
> > >Samuel Alito agreed with Roberts on the first point but not on the second.
> > >
> > > O’Connor is the author of the significant proviso “no undue burden,â€
> > >which limits the state’s power to restrict a woman’s right to choose. In
> > >one decision O’Connor ruled that it was indeed an “undue burden†that a
> > >woman must get her husband’s permission to have an abortion. In a dissent
> > >in the 3rd District Court of Appeals Judge Alito argued that any state has
> > >a right to require a woman to do just that.
> > >
> > > A right of privacy is not specifically granted in the Constitution, but
> > >it is strongly implied therein. Americans have an inalienable right to
> > >hold their own beliefs, to act according to the dictates of their own
> > >consciences, and the “right . . . to be secure in their persons, houses,
> > >papers, and effects. . . †(4th Amendment). The right of privacy follows
> > >from the basic American belief that people are autonomous beings, which
> > >means that they have a right to determine their own lives without
> > >government interference.
> > >
> > > During the Alito hearings there was grandstanding from both sides of the
> > >aisle, but the worst offender was Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma. Coburn
> > >repeatedly said that the science of fetal development should compel the
> > >Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs. Wade. To bolster his argument Coburn
> > >added he had delivered 4,000 babies in his career as an obstetrician.
> > >
> > > I’ve taught over 6,000 students and I hope that they have better
> > >reasoning skills than the good senator. Coburn stated that the early
> > >fetus has brain waves and a heart beat, but animal fetuses have these as
> > >well. What makes humans morally and legally different from animals is
> > >that they are persons, not just biological entities.
> > >
> > > Our moral, religious, and legal tradition has held that persons are
> > >rational beings, who are able to determine their own lives significantly
> > >different from the ways they guide their children or control their
> > >animals. Several footnotes to Roe vs. Wade reference this long tradition,
> > >and I believe that the justices had sufficient reason to rule that the
> > >early fetus is not a person.
> > >
> > > At the beginning of the third trimester, the fetal brain undergoes
> > >explosive brain development. At 25 weeks the brain cells are very poorly
> > >connected and the neocortex, the center of higher brain function, is
> > >undeveloped. At 33 weeks those same cells have thousands of connections
> > >and the neocortex has the six layers of the mature brain.
> > >
> > > This brain is significantly different from most animal brains, which can
> > >form the physical basis for protecting the legal rights of a “beginning
> > >person,†a being with a serious moral right to life. This argument is far
> > >superior to fetal viability, a criterion that, as Senator Coburn pointed
> > >out, is vulnerable to technological advances in preserving the lives of
> > >premature fetuses. Fetal brain development will not change except for
> > >major and immoral genetic engineering.
> > >
> > > My argument gives expectant mothers the same six months’ freedom from
> > >state interference but with a stronger legal foundation. The is also a
> > >nice logical symmetry between starting a person's life at this point and
> > >then legally ending it when the brain no longer functions. It’s also
> > >imperative to note that 88 percent of all American abortions occur within
> > >13 weeks of conception, long before any major elements of a person's life
> > >develops.
> > >
> > > Anti-abortionists claim that abortion causes health problems for women
> > >who submit to them. These same people, however, do very little to support
> > >the social services and accurate information that would make abortions
> > >safer, earlier, and rarer, as is the case in most other industrialized
> > >countries. For example, in Belgium and the Netherlands there are 7
> > >abortions per 1,000 women as opposed to 23 per 1,000 in the U.S.
> > >
> > > The most horrendous effects on female health are found in countries that
> > >do not allow reproductive freedom, and the Bush administration’s
> > >restrictions on family planning in foreign aid are making this problem
> > >worse. With a little over half the population, Brazilian women have more
> > >abortions than American women do. Eastern Europe has the highest rate in
> > >the world: a staggering 90 unsafe abortions per 1,000 women. Generally
> > >speaking, the rate of abortion appears to be directly proportional to the
> > >restrictions placed on sex education and reproductive freedom.
> > >
> > > As we acknowledge the 33rd anniversary of Roe vs. Wade on January 22,
> > >we should heed the heed the results of a recent Harris Poll: 70 percent
> > >said that they would oppose Alito if he intends to overturn this landmark
> > >decision. The choice for America is clear. We can continue to protect a
> > >woman’s right to determine her own life, or we can deny her this right and
> > >force her to face unhealthy and sometimes deadly alternatives to safe,
> > >legal abortions.
> > >
> > > Nick Gier taught religion and philosophy at the University of Idaho for
> > >31 years. For more on the topic see
> > >www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm.
> > >
> > > _____________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
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