[Vision2020] love and marriage
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Sun Feb 19 21:25:52 PST 2006
"An employer has two employees. Both do the same job. One gets more
money
spent by the employer, pays less tax on his wages and gets more
benefits
from the government than the other employee. That is discrimination in
a
nut shell."--Phil Nisbet
But Phil, don't you know that married heterosexual couples are
more important than anyone else? So naturally they should get
all the benefits. That's why they do not need to shop at Wal-Mart;
everybody else subsidizes them.
_DJA
Phil Nisbet <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com> wrote: Saundra
If the U of I was giving child benefits to single parents in lieu of spousal
benefits, I applaud them. Why the heck would I condemn a policy that levels
the playing field?
An employer has two employees. Both do the same job. One gets more money
spent by the employer, pays less tax on his wages and gets more benefits
from the government than the other employee. That is discrimination in a
nut shell.
A single does not get health insurance for a spouse. A single dies and
there is no residual passing on of a retirement check. The single pays a
higher tax rate to secure lesser benefits.
And Saundra, I am celibate and would concur that health insurance policies
that hand out free condoms are just plan wrong. If somebody wants to do the
bump and grind, let them freaking well pay the price themselves.
If I decided that I wanted to hire a monthly hooker, why should you pay for
my predilections? Because as far as I am concerned, a single paying a
marital benefit is nothing more than hiring hookers for somebody else.
I do not care who you love. I do not care who you marry. I do not care
what financial things you do with your spouse or what you do in your
bedroom. I just do not see why I have to pay for it.
I mean, clue me in, what benefit do I get. I can make the case that paying
for kids by all members of society builds a better society and will devolve
to all, including singles without kids, because the kids will become
productive and pay taxes to carry on the society.
But if I pay out to marrieds, why not to shack jobs, to folks who hire a
hooker or just to that old standby, my right hand.
And with that let me break into a chorus of
Stand by your hand
'cause it will never leave you
Or practice to deceive you
In the night
When you’re sad and lonely
Phil Nisbet
>From: "Saundra Lund"
>To: "'Phil Nisbet'"
>
,
,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] love and marriage
>Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:30:43 -0800
>
>Hi Phil,
>
>To bring a local perspective back . . .
>
>I've pointed this out to you before, but I think perhaps you've forgotten.
>
>Where is/was your outrage when the *spouse* portion of employee (with and
>without children) health insurance premiums are used to subsidize the
>benefits *single parents* receive? This was the practice for some time at
>the UI, as I pointed out to you back in June, 2005 (IIRC). Is this the
>practice of other employers? I don't know . . . but I seriously doubt the
>UI dreamed up *that* funding scheme in a vacuum.
>
>And, of course, those who *chose* to remain childless could complain -- and
>complain loudly -- about the huge cost including maternity care adds for
>everyone.
>
>And, how about those who choose to remain celibate: there is a cost from
>including contraceptive benefits (and maternity benefits and adoption
>benefits and optional sterilization and . . . ) in health insurance plans.
>Why should they have to subsidize those who choose a lifestyle that
>includes
>"rubbing genitals together" (your phrase)?
>
>It seems to me much depends on your personal perspective . . . and to which
>special interest group you belong.
>
>One question, though: when ripping on those DINKs you apparently find
>objectionable, you wrote, "They receive extra health insurance . . . "
>
>Please clarify what you mean because it's contrary to my understanding of
>the current (and disturbing, IMHO) trends in employer-provided health
>insurance benefits.
>
>
>JMHO,
>Saundra Lund
>Moscow, ID
>
>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
>nothing.
>- Edmund Burke
>
>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2005, Saundra Lund.
>Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum
>without the express written permission of the author.*****
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
>Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:18 PM
>To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] love and marriage
>
>Keely, J and Joe
>
>That being the case, your assumption falls upon its sword. I find the very
>idea repugnant.
>
>Why is it that I have to grant a financial benefit from my pocket to two
>people simply because they happen to sleep in the same bed and have sex
>with
>each other? And I find it as repugnant for Heterosexuals to receive those
>benefits as I find it for gays.
>
>As a single parent, why is it that I have to pay extra when two people
>without kids decide that they want to contract not to have sex with
>somebody
>else? What sacred right do they have to take from me because they chose to
>have sex exclusively with just one other person?
>
>There are rafts of double income no kids couples, DINKs, who line up for
>the
>gravy train of benefits granted for people who chose to marry. They
>receive
>extra health insurance, cheaper taxes, special privileges and they do it on
>the backs of the singles of this country.
>
>So congratulations that all of you want to extend the numbers of people who
>receive benefits for this act. The trouble is that it’s not universal,
>since it clearly discriminates against those of us who carry out the same
>work without any extra benefits and hands out the benefit solely for the
>act
>of rubbing genitals together.
>
>So it’s not about LOVE, its all about money, benefits for having exclusive
>sex paid for by those who do not chose that particular lifestyle. It is
>inherently unfair to those of us who are gay, heterosexual or celibate and
>remain single.
>
>
>Phil Nisbet
>
>
> >From: "J Ford"
> >To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] love and marriage
> >Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 14:10:34 -0800
> >
> >Absolutely agree(just thought I'd get that outa the way, though.)
> >
> >And thanks to Miss Saundra for her input...well said!
> >
> >Your first sentence is what needs to be heard over, over & over &
>over.....
> >
> >"My criteria for ANY law is that it be based on principles of morality
> >that appeal to us ALL"
> >(my emphasis.)
> >
> >
> >J :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: joekc at adelphia.net
> >>To: J Ford
> >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] love and marriage
> >>Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 13:15:31 -0500
> >>
> >>Good point, J!
> >>
> >>My criteria for ANY law is that it be based on principles of morality
> >>that appeal to us all -- such as do no harm -- as opposed to ones that
> >>appeal only to some -- such as those based on some religious text. The
> >>laws against marriage of children, for instance, are have lots of
> >>reasons in their support; others do not. This is the basis for
> >>stopping the slippery slope.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Joe Campbell
> >>
> >>---- J Ford
wrote:
> >>
> >>=============
> >>I hate to tell you this, but we ARE told whom we can/cannot marry - no
> >>first cousins, no siblings, no children under a certain age, no
> >>multiple partners, etc. This law would just be adding to that list.
> >>If you are going to protest one, you're gonna have to protest them
> >>all. Slippery slope, to say the least.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>J :]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: joekc at adelphia.net
> >> >To: Bill London
> >> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] love and marriage
> >> >Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:17:11 -0500
> >> >
> >> >Thanks for posting this, Bill.
> >> >
> >> >I think it is important to note that the harm is done to us all, not
> >>just
> >> >gays and lesbians. (Which is not to suggest that a greater, more
> >> >direct harm is done to gays and lesbians specifically.)
> >> >
> >> >The Idaho Legislature seems to think that they are allowed to say
> >> >who
> >>can
> >> >or cannot marry whom. If this is true in the case of gays and
> >> >lesbians, then it applies to the rest of us, as well. At least, I
> >> >can't see why
> >>this
> >> >slope is not slippery.
> >> >
> >> >One can muster up abstract arguments based on some religious text to
> >> >suggest a difference, but that only means that the right to marry
> >> >the person of your choice is subject to the philosophical and moral
> >> >whims of the majority. If you think the right to marry the person of
> >> >our choice
> >>is
> >> >not subject to public opinion, then you should disagree with LAWS
> >>against
> >> >same-sex marriage. You may continue to refrain from the practice
> >>yourself,
> >> >but you should not tell anyone whom to marry unless you're willing
> >> >to extend to them the same privilege.
> >> >
> >> >I'd like to see one principle upon which this recent decision is
> >> >based
> >>that
> >> >would not have disastrous consequences were it applied universally.
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Joe Campbell
> >> >
> >> >---- Bill London wrote:
> >> >
> >> >=============
> >> >The Idaho Legislature has now decided that we will be able to vote
> >> >to
> >>add
> >> >an anti-gay marriage provision to the state constitution. What does
> >>this
> >> >mean to our gay neighbors? Please read Rebecca Rod's essay from the
> >>Friday
> >> >Daily News.
> >> >BL
> >> >
> >> >--------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >Daily News, Friday, February 17, 2006
> >> >
> >> > COLUMN: To have and to hold: Rites and
> >> > rights
> >>of
> >> >gay marriage
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Rebecca Rod
> >> >
> >> > In the midst of this year's Hallmark hubbub
> >> >of hearts and flowers and other symbols of love and commitment for
> >> >sale, I found myself reflecting back on Valentine's Day of February
>2004.
> >> > My partner, Theresa, and I spent most of
> >> >that weekend glued to the TV, watching reports of breaking news
> >> >showing some 2,000 gay and lesbian couples making history by getting
> >> >legally married
> >>in
> >> >San Francisco. We saw pairs of men and men, and women and women
> >> >lined on the grand granite stairs of City Hall, their numbers
> >> >spilling onto the
> >>open
> >> >plaza and stretching down the walkways for blocks. Old and young,
> >>dressed
> >> >up and dressed down, holding hands, holding the hands of their
> >> >children, their friends and families, all ages, colors, sizes, and
> >> >shapes - all looking so naturally "normal" like anyone and everyone,
> >> >that even some protesters in the crowd seemed taken aback enough to
> >> >stop and have to remind themselves now, who were they protesting
>against, and for what?
> >> >
> >> > One man with a protest sign who was
> >> >interviewed said he'd actually changed his mind once he'd gotten
> >> >down there and seen all these regular happy people who just wanted to
>get married.
> >> >
> >> > Then the camera showed us inside City Hall
> >>where
> >> >the marriages were taking place. Mayor Gavin Newsom's first act was
> >> >to marry two 80-something-year-old women who'd been "together"
> >> >already for more than 50 years - and not far off, another city
> >> >official was "tying
> >>the
> >> >knot" for a male couple decked out in twin tuxedos, pronouncing them
> >> >"spouses for life" - with everyone beaming and crying at the same
>time.
> >> >
> >> > Meanwhile, Theresa and I were beaming and
> >>crying
> >> >right along with them from our couch in front of the TV, bearing
> >> >witness with the rest of the world to these historic marriages.
> >> >
> >> > Of course, now we know the rest of the
> >> >story, don't we? Those few thousand people (more than 4,000
> >> >marriages were registered in San Francisco from February to March)
> >> >and other gay and lesbian couples who got married during that same
> >> >time in cities west and east, had their marriages revoked or voided
>within about six months.
> >> >
> >> > Then, in desperate efforts to guard against
> >>future
> >> >bouts of marital terrorism, individual states began crafting
> >>constitutional
> >> >amendments to define marriage as only between a man and a woman, by
>God.
>
> >>In
> >> >fact, a group of worried Idaho legislators (worried about votes in
> >> >an election year) have brought this amendment idea up yet again in
> >> >our Statehouse. The amendment passed both the House and Senate and
> >> >will be placed on the ballot to be voted on in November.
> >> >
> >> > Why does extending this right to marry pose
> >>such a
> >> >threat to some people? As humans, we celebrate so many of the most
> >> >meaningful times of our lives in the presence of our loved ones.
> >> >Family
> >>and
> >> >friends gather around us for these special "rites" - namings,
> >> >baptisms, confirmations, graduations, and yes, marriages. We are
> >> >held up and
> >>blessed,
> >> >congratulated, kissed, and wished well with plenty of hugs and tears
> >> >all around - as well it should be. During these times, the love of
> >> >our
> >>family,
> >> >friends, and community is not only most evident, but most wanted and
> >>needed
> >> >to help guide us through life's passages from one landmark to the
>next.
> >>We
> >> >not only gain meaning and direction for our lives from these events,
> >> >but the outpouring of love and support we receive gives our lives a
> >> >certain shape and quality. And what quality is of more importance in
> >> >the life of
> >>a
> >> >human being than his or her capacity to give and receive love? Why
> >>anyone
> >> >would want to intentionally de!
> >> > ny his or her son or daughter, relatives, friends, or e
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ven strangers the legal human right to live
> >> > a
> >>full
> >> >life of open, supported commitment to a loved one is beyond my
> >> >understanding. Talk about a basic "Right to Life" issue!
> >> >
> >> > Well, I have faith that our day will come.
> >> > Love
> >>is
> >> >gaining ground in cities and states and countries here and there
> >> >every
> >>day.
> >> >Like water wins over rock with a steady trickle over time, or
> >> >sometimes
> >>in
> >> >the fury of a flash flood, love will find its way. Weak and
> >> >self-serving constitutional amendments will not block the power of
> >> >love. And history will be made again.
> >> >
> >> > * Rebecca Rod has lived in Moscow for more
> >> > than
> >>20
> >> >years, the past 14 of them with her life partner, Theresa. She has a
> >> >master's degree in library science but has been self-employed as an
> >> >artist/potter for more than 10 years. Last fall she was hired as a
> >>program
> >> >advisor for the University of Idaho Women's Center.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_____________________________________________________
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >
> >>
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