[Vision2020] A Sunday afternoon stroll through Theocratic Park III or Oh that Dougie he's so mean

Sun Feb 19 16:51:35 PST 2006

Gary is once again correct, Joan Opyr makes her own strawmen, in this case three, and then attacks them.

  Joan's arguments reveal her irrational biased towards those that refuse  to follow or accept her leftist authoritarian positions. Her logic has  such a big hole in it her ego can almost fit through it.

  "That opposition to Doug Wilson is completely and wholly theologically based."

  Nope, I think your hatred is driven by your irrational emotions to want  to hate someone and blame someone. Blame Doug, it is way easier. 

  "Funny, that. Also, the Catholic Church has 300 million members; Doug  has between 850 and 1200. Are "we" starting small before "we" go global  sometime in the future?"

 Funny how this going global from  Moscow conspiracy seems irrational doesn't it? Now you know how you  sound when you say that about Wilson going to take over all of Moscow  and then going global. BTW, the RCC has not 300 million members, it has  over a 1 billion. 

  "PK, GC, and DA assume that Christ Church is just another mainstream 
  > church; that it is no different in theology and practice than the 
  > aforementioned Catholics, or the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Mormons, 
  > or the Baptists (Southern, American, Independent, and Free Will).  G"

  Actually, I don't. But my personal value judgment on the validity of a  church, or the numbers of that church have nothing to do with limiting  that group of peoples First Amendment rights to practice their beliefs  to the extent that others do.

  "They might pick up a copy of "My Town" from the Moscow Public 
  > Library -- a film Doug Wilson, Roy Atwood, Ben Merkle, etc., cooperated 
  > with wholeheartedly -- and spend the hour and five minutes watching it."

  Participation in an interview and agreement with the content of the  entire film is not the same thing. Nor would I watch a movie that is  intentionally biased under the pretense it was fair and balanced  information. 

  "It was not made for profit but for educational purposes"

  Funny how that statement works for you and education, but you reject it  when it comes from Wilson on religion. Another double standard? 

  "Say you run a little home 
  > business, and you've been listed for years in the church directory. 
  > You're now de-listed, and the calls for plumbing or house-painting or 
  > carpet-laying or computer repair stop coming.  You've lost your friends, 
  > your money, and your covenantal relationship with your God, all for asking 
  > a few inconvenient questions."

  Humm, I don't know, maybe make new friends, call the yellow pages and  get business because you advertise and provide a service or good worthy  of purchasing? There are 31,000 other people in Latah in which to  business outside of Christ Church. Wilson does not have the ability to  take away persons relationship with God except themselves. 

  Wilson only has the power you and others give him. You give it to him  by talking about him, reading his material, linking others to it, and  making him the talk of the town. I think he is playing you like a fine  tuned piano. Even if only 1% of the population agrees with Wilson, you  sure did a fine job of making them able to join up with him. 

 You guys even made a movie for  him. Maybe next you can have a parade and  hand out his literature for him. 

  Take Care,

  _DJA

  "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:  Ms. Opyr, As is the case with many of your posts you start with an error and 
run with it. I have no defense for Mr. Wilson. I don't think he wants or 
needs it. The point I have been trying to make is that he has the same right 
to exist in our fair town as any other business man. If you don't care for 
his merchandise, shop elsewhere. Those who do elect to partake I assume do 
so with their eyes wide open. Along the way there will inevitably be 
dissatisfied customers. This is unfortunate but I suspect unavoidable 
especially in his line of work. If he is peddling shoddy product or 
providing poor customer service the market will weed him out.  I don't think 
that this is a defense of a man. It is a defense of a world view. Mind ones 
own business. He doesn't tell me how to crack safes and I don't tell him how 
to Shepard his flock. This arrangement has worked quite well for us for 
nearly two decades now, I don't see any reason (your, Keely's, or Michael's 
arguments not withstanding) to change it now.

I certainly don't speak for Ms. Kraut or Mr. Arnold but it seems to me that 
the big sin we are being accused of is not taking the word of our betters 
and jumping on the Wilson is a jerk bandwagon. Gier, Mix, Nielsen, Fox, and 
Opyr have all made it clear what they think, who the hell am I to not sing 
in the Doug, you dirty rat choir. Ever so sorry to disappoint but my tastes 
run more toward the Dropkick Murphys  than the I'll Tell Ya What Ta Think 
folksingers. Sue me.

G. Crabtree
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joan Opyr" 
To: "Vision2020 Moscow" 
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 1:00 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] The Trouble With Doug, or Theocratic Park III

> Would someone mind walking down a long, dark tunnel and turning on the 
> generators?  There are dinosaurs out there, but you can take a shotgun 
> with you.  Not that it will be much good against enormous man-eating 
> raptors, but you're brave, aren't you?  Well, aren't you?
>
> Pat Kraut, G. Crabtree, and Donovan Arnold all begin their defenses of 
> Doug by insisting that he is the victim of mass religious persecution.  In 
> order to believe this, they must assume, without evidence, three things:
>
> 1. That opposition to Doug Wilson is completely and wholly theologically 
> based.  Because his religious beliefs seem sexist, racist, and homophobic 
> to Moscow's "liberals," some amorphous "we" are out to get him.  But "we" 
> are not out to get the Pope, who speaks sexism and homophobia into power 
> ex cathedra.  Funny, that.  Also, the Catholic Church has 300 million 
> members; Doug has between 850 and 1200. Are "we" starting small before 
> "we" go global sometime in the future?  (I don't know.  I've missed 
> several Liberal Conspiracy meetings, but I'll have a word with Sinead 
> O'Connor and get back to you.)
>
> 2. PK, GC, and DA assume that Christ Church is just another mainstream 
> church; that it is no different in theology and practice than the 
> aforementioned Catholics, or the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Mormons, 
> or the Baptists (Southern, American, Independent, and Free Will).  G. 
> Crabtree's line is, "If you don't like what Doug is preaching, then pack 
> up your Bibles and leave."  Oddly enough, I used to say this myself.  I 
> used to believe it, until I learned better.  The first time a shunned and 
> spiritually-battered Kirker weeps on your sofa, you might dismiss it as an 
> anomaly.  But what about the second, third, fourth or fifth?  I see that 
> as a pattern.  And -- unlike PK, GC, and DA -- I've taken the time and 
> trouble (oh, what a load of trouble) to actually read Doug's massive 
> assortment of writings.  Log onto www.credenda.org, read all of it, and 
> then get back to me.  We'll talk.
>
> 3. PK, GC, and DA either choose to ignore Doug's well-publicized political 
> agenda or they don't believe it exists.  This, I fear, is willful 
> ignorance.  They might pick up a copy of "My Town" from the Moscow Public 
> Library -- a film Doug Wilson, Roy Atwood, Ben Merkle, etc., cooperated 
> with wholeheartedly -- and spend the hour and five minutes watching it. 
> The film as made by WSU professor Michael Hayes.  It was not made for 
> profit but for educational purposes, and it is not a hatchet-job on Wilson 
> and company.  They speak for themselves in the film without critical 
> commentary.  (Donovan's assertion that someone, somewhere is making money 
> off this film is false, and I suggest he knock it off before I go "Atwood" 
> on him and threaten him with my "crack legal team."  Crack.  Legal.  Team. 
> Crack.  Legal.  Crack.  Mostly crack.)
>
> Three assumptions, all incorrect.  There is no Liberal Conspiracy.  I 
> tried to get one together, but the Vegans wouldn't meet me at Mikey's.  Go 
> figure.  Someone must have told them that "Opyr" is Ukrainian for vampire. 
> (It is, you know.)  Here's how things stand, at least on Vision 2020. 
> Keely Emerine-Mix objects to Doug Wilson's use and abuse of the gospel. 
> So, too, I believe, does J. Ford.  Why?  Because they believe in the 
> gospel; they believe in Jesus Christ.  It hurts them to see Doug swinging 
> their savior about like a battle-axe.  Wayne Fox, Nick Gier, and Ralph 
> Nielsen are not defending the gospel, as such, by objecting to Doug 
> Wilson's actions and interpretations.  Ralph, I know, is an atheist in 
> good standing.  He doesn't defend the gospel as the gospel; he defends 
> ancient documents from mistranslation, misinterpretation, and sheer 
> bloody-minded ignorance.  People who don't know the difference between a 
> version and a translation get on Ralph's last nerve, as they do mine.
>
> Second, Christ Church is not a church like any other, at least not on the 
> Palouse.  In the wider world, it's not unique.  It has theocratic kinfolk 
> across the United States -- a sister church in Monroe, Louisiana, run by 
> Doug's good buddy and co-founder of the racist League of the South, Steve 
> Wilkins.  Doug has plant churches in Cary, NC, Spokane, WA, and other 
> places.  That's why he has a seminary, Grayfriars -- to spread his church 
> far and wide via his very own trained ministry.  As Doug is not himself a 
> trained minister, this strikes many as wild hubris, but you don't need to 
> be ordained to pastor.  I believe that, as I know do Keely and Rose and 
> Melynda (the latter two, as Quakers, don't believe in "hireling priests," 
> period).
>
> What's going on in Christ Church right now?  What about Michael Metzler's 
> blog, Poohsthink.com, doesn't G. Crabtree understand?  Where to begin?  I 
> expect that R. C. Sproul, Jr., a big wheel in the Christian Reformed 
> world, will soon be joining Doug's presbytery.  Sproul has been tossed 
> from his own presbytery (and de-frocked) for admitting to shunning, 
> spiritual abuse, using a fake tax i.d., my goodness how the list goes on. 
> (Doug has been defending R. C. Sproul on his blog, http://dougwils.com, by 
> declaring that self-incrimination is not Biblical, ergo, R. C. is 
> innocent?  Or at least not proven guilty?  It's so incredibly goofy, it's 
> hard to follow.  I like to think of it as the "R. C. and a Moon Pie" 
> defense.)  In the meantime, Doug continues his own practice of shunning, 
> of threats, and of generally unkind and perhaps unGodly behavior.  There's 
> nothing new there; nothing new at all.
>
> Ever been shunned, Pat, Gary, Donovan?  Ever had friends of a decade stop 
> speaking to you on pastor's orders?  Had those friends' wives stop 
> speaking to your wife, or those friends' kids stop playing with your kids? 
> I understand it's very painful -- and, if the shunning doesn't work, the 
> dramatic fall-off in your business often does.  Say you run a little home 
> business, and you've been listed for years in the church directory. 
> You're now de-listed, and the calls for plumbing or house-painting or 
> carpet-laying or computer repair stop coming.  You've lost your friends, 
> your money, and your covenantal relationship with your God, all for asking 
> a few inconvenient questions.  Many churches shun.  The Jehovah's 
> Witnesses, for example.  It's cruel but effective; it keeps the doubters 
> in line, long after they should have -- by all reason and Gary's lights --  
> packed up and moved on.
>
> Doug chose to establish his church in Moscow because it was "strategic," 
> and that's not my word; it's his.  As he extends his spiritual/business 
> disciplinary techniques out into the broader community -- as we begin to 
> see organized campaigns of shunning and threats to employment -- it'll be 
> interesting to see who remains willfully blind and for how long.  As long 
> as Doug and his flunkies are nice to them personally, it might be forever, 
> eh, Donovan?  As long as they keep offering up those encouraging pats on 
> the back?  As long as no one you know is personally targeted, G. Crabtree? 
> As long as all goes well for Pat in Pat's World?  (Pat's World is like 
> Wayne's World, only instead of Garth and Tia Carerra, there's Dick Cheney 
> with a mullet and George W. Bush in a thong.)
>
> Now, I'll sit back and wait for the Crack Legal Team to come get me. 
> That'll be Greg Dickison, right?  I won't even bother to go outside.  I 
> believe my border collie, Fergus, can handle him.  Or I might send my 
> Scottish terrier, Davey; he's only a little dog, but he whacks at the 
> voles like no one's business.  Grrrrr.
>
> Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
> www.joanopyr.com
>
> PS: For those of you who were speculating about where I am on the 
> Political Compass, I'm sitting on the bushy beard of Peter Kropotkin.  I'm 
> to the right of Mahatma Gandhi, but very much to the left of Emma Goldman 
> and Noam Chomsky.  Who knew?
>
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