[Vision2020] The Trouble With Doug, or Theocratic Park III

[Art Deco]

Pat says:

"No, I will not be a part of trying to destroy a religious group in the good 
ol (sic) USA!"

The Aryan Nations, KKK, and the CCC will be very pleased.

W.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Trouble With Doug, or Theocratic Park III


> The truth is that you do not know or understand anything about me or how I
> feel about CC or anything else and it is arrogant of you to think you do!! 
> I
> do not know Doug Wilson nor have I ever attended his services I have 
> however
> read one or two history books and this type of attack on ANY church or 
> group
> no matter how much we do not approve of them is a very slippery slope. 
> 'Not
> in my town' started because people were attacking Jews in Billings MT and
> now it is used by (a much more enlightened group of course) against CC. 
> You
> don't see a problem here? I sure do and it has nothing to do with taxes or
> parking. If you think I am embarrassed by your use of my name in this 
> manner
> your mistaken...I was also on a list that would not allow me to live in
> Butlers 'whites only country' and I am very proud of being on that list. 
> No,
> I will not be a part of trying to destroy a religious group in the good ol
> USA!
>
> If we do discover a complete theory..of everything...we shall all,
> philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people,
> be able to take part in the discussion of why it is that we and the 
> universe
> exist if we find the answer to that,
> it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason...for then we would know
> the mind of God.
> Stephen Hawking
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joan Opyr" <joanopyr at moscow.com>
> To: "Vision2020 Moscow" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 1:00 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] The Trouble With Doug, or Theocratic Park III
>
>
> Would someone mind walking down a long, dark tunnel and turning on the
> generators?  There are dinosaurs out there, but you can take a shotgun
> with you.  Not that it will be much good against enormous man-eating
> raptors, but you're brave, aren't you?  Well, aren't you?
>
> Pat Kraut, G. Crabtree, and Donovan Arnold all begin their defenses of
> Doug by insisting that he is the victim of mass religious persecution.
> In order to believe this, they must assume, without evidence, three
> things:
>
> 1. That opposition to Doug Wilson is completely and wholly
> theologically based.  Because his religious beliefs seem sexist,
> racist, and homophobic to Moscow's "liberals," some amorphous "we" are
> out to get him.  But "we" are not out to get the Pope, who speaks
> sexism and homophobia into power ex cathedra.  Funny, that.  Also, the
> Catholic Church has 300 million members; Doug has between 850 and 1200.
>  Are "we" starting small before "we" go global sometime in the future?
> (I don't know.  I've missed several Liberal Conspiracy meetings, but
> I'll have a word with Sinead O'Connor and get back to you.)
>
> 2. PK, GC, and DA assume that Christ Church is just another mainstream
> church; that it is no different in theology and practice than the
> aforementioned Catholics, or the Lutherans, the Methodists, the
> Mormons, or the Baptists (Southern, American, Independent, and Free
> Will).  G. Crabtree's line is, "If you don't like what Doug is
> preaching, then pack up your Bibles and leave."  Oddly enough, I used
> to say this myself.  I used to believe it, until I learned better.  The
> first time a shunned and spiritually-battered Kirker weeps on your
> sofa, you might dismiss it as an anomaly.  But what about the second,
> third, fourth or fifth?  I see that as a pattern.  And -- unlike PK,
> GC, and DA -- I've taken the time and trouble (oh, what a load of
> trouble) to actually read Doug's massive assortment of writings.  Log
> onto www.credenda.org, read all of it, and then get back to me.  We'll
> talk.
>
> 3. PK, GC, and DA either choose to ignore Doug's well-publicized
> political agenda or they don't believe it exists.  This, I fear, is
> willful ignorance.  They might pick up a copy of "My Town" from the
> Moscow Public Library -- a film Doug Wilson, Roy Atwood, Ben Merkle,
> etc., cooperated with wholeheartedly -- and spend the hour and five
> minutes watching it.  The film as made by WSU professor Michael Hayes.
> It was not made for profit but for educational purposes, and it is not
> a hatchet-job on Wilson and company.  They speak for themselves in the
> film without critical commentary.  (Donovan's assertion that someone,
> somewhere is making money off this film is false, and I suggest he
> knock it off before I go "Atwood" on him and threaten him with my
> "crack legal team."  Crack.  Legal.  Team.  Crack.  Legal.  Crack.
> Mostly crack.)
>
> Three assumptions, all incorrect.  There is no Liberal Conspiracy.  I
> tried to get one together, but the Vegans wouldn't meet me at Mikey's.
> Go figure.  Someone must have told them that "Opyr" is Ukrainian for
> vampire.  (It is, you know.)  Here's how things stand, at least on
> Vision 2020.  Keely Emerine-Mix objects to Doug Wilson's use and abuse
> of the gospel.  So, too, I believe, does J. Ford.  Why?  Because they
> believe in the gospel; they believe in Jesus Christ.  It hurts them to
> see Doug swinging their savior about like a battle-axe.  Wayne Fox,
> Nick Gier, and Ralph Nielsen are not defending the gospel, as such, by
> objecting to Doug Wilson's actions and interpretations.  Ralph, I know,
> is an atheist in good standing.  He doesn't defend the gospel as the
> gospel; he defends ancient documents from mistranslation,
> misinterpretation, and sheer bloody-minded ignorance.  People who don't
> know the difference between a version and a translation get on Ralph's
> last nerve, as they do mine.
>
> Second, Christ Church is not a church like any other, at least not on
> the Palouse.  In the wider world, it's not unique.  It has theocratic
> kinfolk across the United States -- a sister church in Monroe,
> Louisiana, run by Doug's good buddy and co-founder of the racist League
> of the South, Steve Wilkins.  Doug has plant churches in Cary, NC,
> Spokane, WA, and other places.  That's why he has a seminary,
> Grayfriars -- to spread his church far and wide via his very own
> trained ministry.  As Doug is not himself a trained minister, this
> strikes many as wild hubris, but you don't need to be ordained to
> pastor.  I believe that, as I know do Keely and Rose and Melynda (the
> latter two, as Quakers, don't believe in "hireling priests," period).
>
> What's going on in Christ Church right now?  What about Michael
> Metzler's blog, Poohsthink.com, doesn't G. Crabtree understand?  Where
> to begin?  I expect that R. C. Sproul, Jr., a big wheel in the
> Christian Reformed world, will soon be joining Doug's presbytery.
> Sproul has been tossed from his own presbytery (and de-frocked) for
> admitting to shunning, spiritual abuse, using a fake tax i.d., my
> goodness how the list goes on.  (Doug has been defending R. C. Sproul
> on his blog, http://dougwils.com, by declaring that self-incrimination
> is not Biblical, ergo, R. C. is innocent?  Or at least not proven
> guilty?  It's so incredibly goofy, it's hard to follow.  I like to
> think of it as the "R. C. and a Moon Pie" defense.)  In the meantime,
> Doug continues his own practice of shunning, of threats, and of
> generally unkind and perhaps unGodly behavior.  There's nothing new
> there; nothing new at all.
>
> Ever been shunned, Pat, Gary, Donovan?  Ever had friends of a decade
> stop speaking to you on pastor's orders?  Had those friends' wives stop
> speaking to your wife, or those friends' kids stop playing with your
> kids?  I understand it's very painful -- and, if the shunning doesn't
> work, the dramatic fall-off in your business often does.  Say you run a
> little home business, and you've been listed for years in the church
> directory.  You're now de-listed, and the calls for plumbing or
> house-painting or carpet-laying or computer repair stop coming.  You've
> lost your friends, your money, and your covenantal relationship with
> your God, all for asking a few inconvenient questions.  Many churches
> shun.  The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example.  It's cruel but effective;
> it keeps the doubters in line, long after they should have -- by all
> reason and Gary's lights -- packed up and moved on.
>
> Doug chose to establish his church in Moscow because it was
> "strategic," and that's not my word; it's his.  As he extends his
> spiritual/business disciplinary techniques out into the broader
> community -- as we begin to see organized campaigns of shunning and
> threats to employment -- it'll be interesting to see who remains
> willfully blind and for how long.  As long as Doug and his flunkies are
> nice to them personally, it might be forever, eh, Donovan?  As long as
> they keep offering up those encouraging pats on the back?  As long as
> no one you know is personally targeted, G. Crabtree?  As long as all
> goes well for Pat in Pat's World?  (Pat's World is like Wayne's World,
> only instead of Garth and Tia Carerra, there's Dick Cheney with a
> mullet and George W. Bush in a thong.)
>
> Now, I'll sit back and wait for the Crack Legal Team to come get me.
> That'll be Greg Dickison, right?  I won't even bother to go outside.  I
> believe my border collie, Fergus, can handle him.  Or I might send my
> Scottish terrier, Davey; he's only a little dog, but he whacks at the
> voles like no one's business.  Grrrrr.
>
> Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
> www.joanopyr.com
>
> PS: For those of you who were speculating about where I am on the
> Political Compass, I'm sitting on the bushy beard of Peter Kropotkin.
> I'm to the right of Mahatma Gandhi, but very much to the left of Emma
> Goldman and Noam Chomsky.  Who knew?
>
> _____________________________________________________
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>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
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