[Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Sun Feb 12 10:56:55 PST 2006
Matt,
You have not answered the simple question I posed to you. Until you choose
to do so, a rational discussion on this matter is not possible.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
To: <deco at moscow.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
>
> Art,
>
> I have no doubt religion has many twists and turns throughout its history.
> I am not saying that Wilson is a good or bad man. I know little about him,
> and really dont care too. By the sounds of it he does some unethical
> things. I really don't wish to get into an argument about religion, for I
> agree with most of what you have mentioned. However, I also believe in the
> freedom of speech.
>
> My point has and will continue to stand. The day Wilson starts murdering
> or doing Illegal practices(worse than code violations), is the day I'm on
> your side. To compare cc to the Islamic extremists, is a little overboard.
> Now if Doug is telling people to kill or murder, could we please provide
> me with written documentation of this. Thank you
>
> Take care,
> Matt
>
>>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
>>Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:52:29 -0800
>>
>>Matt says:
>>
>>"The way I take it is that Art doesnt see any good in religion, and so yes
>>that is dead set."
>>
>>Matt, you have greatly over-simplified and also erroneously summed up my
>>previous posting.
>>
>>Assuming you want to have a serious dialogue, please start with the seven
>>numbered statements below and tell which you do not believe is true and
>>why. After we get past this point then we can go on to the question of
>>the value of religions and other issues covered in my original post.
>>
>>
>> Basic Epistemological and Logical Problems with Religious Knowledge
>> Claims
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. Throughout the course of history and currently there are
>> thousands of different basic sets of religious beliefs, hereinafter
>> called religions. [If individual variations are counted, the number is
>> probably in the billions.]
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. Each of these different religions is contradictory to all the
>> others in at least one significant respect. If they were not, they
>> wouldn't be different religions.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. Therefore, at most one of these religions is true, if any.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. Currently, there is no agreed upon, practical method to
>> decide which of these many religions is true, if any. For example:
>>
>>
>>
>> If a Muslim and a Trinitarian Christian disagree significantly over
>> the value of the gravitational constant and each attempts to launch a
>> space probe based on their different values of the gravitational
>> constant, there is a reality check. At least one or possibly both of the
>> probes will fail because of the use of an untrue gravitational constant.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, consider this situation:
>>
>>
>>
>> The Trinitarian asserts that not only is Jesus the Son of God but
>> God Himself and only those that accept this belief will go to some
>> alleged heaven.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Muslim asserts to the contrary that Jesus is neither the Son of
>> God nor God Himself and those who believe such will not go to some
>> alleged heaven.
>>
>>
>>
>> Where is the reality check? Where is the method for determining
>> the probability of the truth of these contradictory assertions? What
>> tests, experiments, observations, etc can be made to see which, if either
>> of these supernatural sets of assertions is true? You can wait until
>> death, but such a method is hardly useful to a living person who
>> sincerely wants to know the answer to the question since it is alleged
>> that certain beliefs and attendant behaviors now will influence what will
>> happen in the alleged afterlife.
>>
>>
>>
>> 5. Some religions can be discarded as candidates for the truth
>> since statements of their creeds contain or lead to logical
>> contradictions.
>>
>>
>>
>> 6. Despite the lack of a method for determining the truth of
>> their unique assertions, there are proponents of almost every religion
>> who fervently believe that theirs is the correct one and only theirs is
>> the correct one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The above described situation [1. – 6.] is tersely, partially, but
>> accurately described by the Leigh Rubin's cartoon:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 7. Not only do the most avid believers of most religions insist
>> that theirs is the only "true" religion, but fervently (including threats
>> of torture and death from some religions) insist that others must also
>> believe likewise and behave according to the proscriptions of that
>> religion.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>>deco at moscow.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>>To: <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:51 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
>>
>>
>> >
>> > J
>> >
>> > Where do I get off? The way I take it is that Art doesnt see any good
>> > in
>> > religion, and so yes that is dead set. Of course I could be assuming.
>>There
>> > are good things too.
>> >
>> > The comparison is still the same. The day that ccc starts cutting off
>>heads
>> > with a rusty knife, then and only then will I demonize them.
>> >
>> > matthew
>> >
>> >>From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>> >>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
>> >>Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:11:24 -0800
>> >>
>> >>It is DOUG WILSON who started the name calling, the labeling of those
>>that
>> >>don't follow his way of thinking/living, who insists that not following
>>HIM
>> >>and HIS WAY is tantamount to blasphemy, who continues to this very day
>>to
>> >>say those not in HIS favor are evil and the enemy, etc.
>> >>
>> >>They cut with the rusty knife of excommunication, character
>>assassination,
>> >>the loss of income, the break-up of marriages, the condoning of
>>adultery,
>> >>the public pronouncement of death to those whose life "style" they
>> >>don't
>> >>agree with, etc.
>> >>
>> >>It is CC that ignore pleas for the people who leave, to have their life
>>be
>> >>spared and who continue to turn deaf ears and eyes to the obvious
>> >>mis-behavior and outright disdain for law of their "pastor", that the
>>rest
>> >>of the citizens of this community follow.
>> >>
>> >>Where do you get off stating that Art or anyone else is "dead set in
>> >>their(your) views"?
>> >>
>> >>J :]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>> >>>To: deco at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
>> >>>Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:58:07 -0800
>> >>>
>> >>>Art,
>> >>>
>> >>>Glad to see you are dead set in your views and label all those who
>> >>>have
>> >>>found religion as a bad thing. I agree that throughout history
>> >>>religion
>> >>>has influenced believers into a frenzy of hatred and death. I also
>>believe
>> >>>that it has also inspired individuals to help others.
>> >>>
>> >>>As in local religion, you are labeling those cccers as evil entities
>> >>>of
>> >>>this world. Art the day that christ church goers start cutting off
>>heads
>> >>>with a rusty 12" knife, while the person is pleading for his life,
>>which
>> >>>turns into a blood curdeling scream, is the day you have convinced me.
>> >>>
>> >>>Matthew D
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>> >>>>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
>> >>>>Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:58:32 -0800
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Robert, et al,
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Perhaps we need to be very careful about condemning all Moslems on
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>basis of what we have seen from terrorists and those who are now
>> >>>>hating/rioting/destructively venting in the cartoon flap. There are,
>>no
>> >>>>doubt what-so-ever, some very terrible people who are or who profess
>>to
>> >>>>be Moslems, and worse, profess to be the "true" leaders of Islam and
>>who
>> >>>>wish to do many of us great, great harm.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>However, not all Moslems take this view; not all Moslems hate Jews.
>>Just
>> >>>>as the local CCC does not represent anything but a crackpot fringe
>>cult
>> >>>>of Christianity, hard-line Moslems, regardless of what they claim, do
>>not
>> >>>>represent all of Islam. It is to the moderate Moslems that we need
>> >>>>to
>> >>>>appeal and to attempt to dialogue and to co-exist with.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>As a non-believer, I see the use of religious fervor by terrorists,
>> >>>>politicians, and others, no matter what religion is professed, to be
>> >>>>extremely scary. Not only can irrational religious/superstitious
>>beliefs
>> >>>>be very powerful, passionate, mind-numbing motivators, it is
>> >>>>extremely
>> >>>>scary because unlike gravity, string theory, electricity, etc, there
>>is
>> >>>>currently no way to determine which set of religious beliefs, if any,
>>are
>> >>>>true.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>This unfortunate state of affairs of total religious ignorance, and
>> >>>>no
>> >>>>way of alleviating it yet discovered, is one main reason why
>>religionists
>> >>>>resort to all kinds of rhetorical tricks to convince themselves and
>> >>>>to
>> >>>>convince everyone else that their claims are the only "true" ones.
>> >>>>Rioting, for example, is a similar rhetorical device to shouting to
>> >>>>convince others that you are correct. A "Whoever can shout the
>>loudest
>> >>>>wins." mentality. Rioting/hating/etc also potently engages the
>>passions,
>> >>>>further preventing rational thought/investigation into
>> >>>>religious/superstitious claims and their effects on actions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I do not know what the solution is. I know from living here and
>>living
>> >>>>in/visiting primarily Islamic areas that once so-called religious
>> >>>>"truths" are invoked to justify an attitude or a behavior, all hope
>> >>>>is
>> >>>>lost for a rational solution.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>It appears extremely, extremely unlikely that the peoples of the
>> >>>>world
>> >>>>will suddenly recognize that religious/superstitious fantasies are
>>just
>> >>>>that -- unverifiable, troglodytic fantasies.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>If history has taught us anything it is: Religious/superstitious
>> >>>>fantasies certainly have useful purposes at times, but are not the
>>kind
>> >>>>of knowledge on which to successfully base/predict probable outcomes
>>in
>> >>>>the universe as we know it. Until, or more realistically, if, that
>> >>>>fundamental state of affairs is recognized, horrific, perhaps
>>humankind
>> >>>>annihilating strife will grow and continue.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Those who have known me for a long time know that it has been for at
>> >>>>least 50 years and is my opinion that the end of humankind will not
>> >>>>be
>> >>>>wrought by some alleged god or gods invisibly hiding/lurking in the
>> >>>>shadows, but some f**king maniacs acting as if those alleged
>> >>>>invisible
>> >>>>shadows have substance and that these f**king maniacs know exactly
>>what
>> >>>>those invisible shadows are bidding.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>There is some probability, perhaps greater than 0.50, given the
>>current
>> >>>>state of technology/knowledge, the near end of humankind will occur
>> >>>>within 25 years and be wrought by religious fanatics.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I am glad I am old and hopefully be gone by then.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> >>>>deco at moscow.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- From: <mekt7 at netscape.net>
>> >>>>To: <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:30 PM
>> >>>>Subject: [Vision2020] Holocaust Toons
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>One can hardly be surprised that Iran wants to play like the little
>>boy
>> >>>>>who, when offended, shouts, "Oh yeah? Well your momma!, is going to
>>do
>> >>>>>Holocaust cartoons. It does nothing for their cause but show the
>>world
>> >>>>>the true face of Islam, a violent and hostile threat to the peace of
>>the
>> >>>>>world.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Robert
>> >>>>>___________________________________________________
>> >>>>>Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
>> >>>>>Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
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>> >>>>>
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
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>><< clip_image002.jpg >>
>
>
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