[Vision2020] Reply's to trolls- Don't feed the trolls

Thu Feb 2 23:54:53 PST 2006

Sunil

I was involved in a group from 1991-96 that raised funds and sent 
humanitarian supplies to E Timor following the 1991 Dili massacres.  It was 
right after that event that Bill Clinton jumped in and said that he would be 
supportive of intervention in the area.  Several army officers in the 
Indonesian military were found guilty of involvement in the slaughters of 
that year, but they got a slap on the wrist and were reassigned elsewhere.

Yes the military trained the militia forces, as part of the counter 
insurgency, but following Dili, the military itself was not overly involved. 
  In 1993, as violent incidence increased, our contacts there noted that 
cross border militia groups were pulling hit and runs and that their 
motivation was driving out the Catholic Church in the region.  In 1994 we 
requested action from the Clinton administration after a particularly brutal 
attakc in which a Convent that was acting as a temporary refuge camp was 
attacked and several thousand people were killed.  The response was that 
Suharto and his military were doing all they could to keep the militias in 
check and that there was no need for further US action there.  In 1995 we 
asked that miliraey aid to Indonesia be halted until the Central Government 
halted the attacks of the militias.  Instead of a reduction, an increase in 
arms was sent to Suharto.  Nothing was done to check the Islamic militias.

The actions of 1975-1989 in which the Indonesian army killed close to 
160,000 people are different than the time frame I was refering to.  
Similarly, the 1998-99 run up to Independence was marked by both militia and 
Army attacks in a scorched earth policy that left thousands of others dead.  
But during the period 1991-1996, according to the people who used to 
communicate with us, the dominate slaughter occured and it was one directed 
by Islamic militias and not Indonesian Army forces.

Never has a Nobel Prize been better given than that in 1996.  The focus that 
gave was what altered the course of US government policy and got both the 
USA and the Aussies to take action that lead to the final Independence for 
the Timorese.

Yes the Indonesian government helped set up the militias, but their 
orientation was specifically radical pan-Islam.  Some of those same groups 
are now active in the violence elsewhere in Indonesia that pits Moslems 
against non-Moslems.  The secular government of Indonesia spawned these 
groups, but they have a very different ideology.

Phil Nisbet

>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Reply's to trolls- Don't feed the trolls
>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:52:16 -0800
>
>Phil,
>
>A couple of times now you've blamed Islamic extremists for the recent 
>slaughter in East Timor.  I don't believe that's correct; while it may not 
>have been the official Indonesian army the last time, my memory is that 
>they either funded or trained or sponsored the 'militias' that were killing 
>civilians.
>
>Sunil
>
>
>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Reply's to trolls- Don't feed the trolls
>>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:47:49 -0800
>>
>>Sunil
>>
>>I did not bother to get to that post.  If its you asking, I will read and 
>>reply to what ever references you care to provide Sunil.
>>
>>John D is a troll.  I will not repond to the John D troll anymore.  Either 
>>he posts his or her name or he or she can rot for all I care.  The 
>>objective of anonymous trolling is to provoke fights and not have any of 
>>it get on you.  I do not believe that to be the purpose of this listserv.  
>>The reason that we are posting here with our names in full view is to make 
>>a community dialogue that can hopefully get beyond labels and build 
>>community.
>>
>>Phil Nisbet
>>
>>
>>>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Reply's to trolls- Don't feed the trolls
>>>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:00:28 -0800
>>>
>>>What about the references he provides?  That information jives with my 
>>>recollection of what happened in East Timor, beginning with the original 
>>>Indonesian invasion, and with the militias they sponsored more recently.  
>>>Telling John to suck rocks doesn't change the facts (if he's correct.)
>>>
>>>Sunil
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>Subject: [Vision2020] Reply's to trolls- Don't feed the trolls
>>>>Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:40:13 -0800
>>>>
>>>>I do not intend to reply to the TROLL John D.
>>>>
>>>>Either he choses to identify himself or he can go suck rocks.
>>>>
>>>>Anonymous posting is one of the problems that causes divisiveness on 
>>>>BB's and on listserves.  Feeding the trolls just makes them fat.
>>>>
>>>>So the Ball is in your court John D., if you actually want a response 
>>>>form me on any subject you post to, sign your posts with who you 
>>>>actually are.
>>>>
>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>
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>>
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>
>
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