[Vision2020] Pat Kraut, area churches, and teachings abouthomosexuality

[keely emerinemix]

Sharing, as does Joe, Phil's revulsion toward Islamic extremists -- and 
violent extremists of any kind -- I'd like to add a few comments to Joe's 
excellent post.

Were it not so patently manipulative and disingenuous, Christ Church's 
insistence that it's being persecuted for its belief system, especially as 
regards homosexuality and abortion, would be laughable.  After all, I can't 
think of a single self-identified evangelical church on the Palouse that 
doesn't hold to similar convictions based on their reading of Scripture, and 
yet somehow they manage to preach and, more important, to live the Gospel 
without skinnydipping from the deep wells of viciousness and arrogance that 
the merry men of the Kirk seem to.  We Christians might debate the 
Scriptures and explore together the church's and the individual believer's 
mandate for conduct, but we agree that speaking truth as we see it, 
especially over peripheral issues, doesn't allow for -- in fact, prohibits 
-- the kind of gleeful bomb-throwing that seems to pass for public 
demonstration of Biblical exegesis and Gospel preaching from Christ Church.

I told Doug Wilson once that I thought it was offensive to suggest that 
public scorn towards Christ Church was somehow persecution, a badge of 
Christian merit for its attendees and a crown of anti-Christian rebellion 
for its detractors.  Persecution, I said, is what we can correctly call the 
plight of the Sudanese evangelical, the Chinese house-church leader, and the 
Guatemalan peasant who cling to Christ in the face of enormous political, 
familial, social and emotional cost.  What Christ Church is experiencing is 
simply a consequence of the wonderfully libertarian nature of social 
discourse and civility -- that is, when you act like an ass, you will be 
treated as though you did.  Further actions will confirm that one instance 
of bad behavior was an anamoly or that a pattern is indeed being set.  The 
marketplace of ideas, the socio-civic jury of one's peers, the town square 
and the gossipy old lady next door will all eventually conclude that he who 
continues to behave badly, who stokes the fires of dissent with wood, hay, 
and stubble (1 Cor. 3) and who jeers at those on the outside of whatever 
club he's set up or belief system he holds to will be judged accordingly, 
and then either rejected, rebuked, or responded to in kind.

It's not a surprise, and it's not persecution.  If it were, then those whiny 
Sudanese evangelicals and those wimpy Chinese house church leaders ought to 
be silenced; truly, the center of all persecution for righteousness' sake  
is to be found right here in Moscow, Idaho.  But I think not.  I think it's 
just like we all learned on the playground -- treat people nicely, and 
they'll treat you pretty well, tell the truth and they'll trust you, act 
like a bully and you won't be invited to the birthday party -- which you 
loudly proclaim to anyone who will listen is just for buttheads and dorks 
anyway.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is, indeed, a fragrance to some and a stench to 
others, but that refers to the convicting, humbling nature and truth of the 
message and the sinless character of the Messager.  It ought never refer to 
the residue left in the nostrils of believers and non-believers by those who 
claim His name and think that treatises on slavery, paedobaptism, household 
patriarchy and buffoonery, bullying, bigotry and boyish pranks suffice for a 
witness to the Message.  And for those who cry foul at my characterization, 
who insist that those things are mere trifles and not reflective of the 
hearts of Kirk leadership, then I would gently, hopefully, tearfully ask 
this --

How in Heaven's name would we know any better?

keely emerine mix




"It makes me so mad when
From: joekc at adelphia.net
To: Phil Nisbet <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com, joanopyr at earthlink.net
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Pat Kraut, area churches, and teachings 
abouthomosexuality
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 9:43:49 -0500

Dear Phil,

No one that I know would compare the evils of CC/NSA with the evils of the 
folks you note below. Some have made analogies between CC/NSA and the folks 
noted below but these same folks know well the difference between 
persecution and stoning, between defending the institution of slavery and 
actually holding someone hostage. I’m not sure to whom your lesson is 
directed, though I admit that much of what you say below is true and it is a 
service to remind folks of those atrocities, least we grow lazy and forget.

Given recent comments by you and Pat, I feel a need to clarify a few things.

I think it is important to separate three things. First, there are the 
various violations of zoning laws and tax codes that are committed by the 
CC/NSA group. Second, there is their particular set of theological beliefs. 
Third, there is the arrogant propensity of some — not all — members of 
the group (Wilson and Iverson are two such folks) to inflict their (let’s 
say) ‘different’ (mis)understandings of a holy text onto the rest of us. 
I have commented on all of these matters but I try hard to keep them 
separate. I have commented on the third matter as a proponent of Mill’s 
liberal theory of law, on the second matter as a philosopher and Christian, 
and on the third matter as a somewhat informed citizen. Sometimes I think 
that the second and third matter is all a smokescreen to hide the first 
matter. I think this especially when I see intelligent folks like you and 
Pat and Gary falling for their PR slant of being the persecuted ones, 
supposing that all that was at !
  issue was the second matter.

The three matters above are connected in at least one way. Some — not all 
— members of the CC/NSA group (Wilson and Iverson, in particular) have an 
utter distain for the law. This fact is a result of the second matter but 
manifested in the first and third matters. You don’t have to believe me. 
Just go to your favorite Doug Wilson website and plug in ‘law’ in the 
search engine. Or read the Ed Iverson column in the DN where he repeats over 
and over again “the law is an ass.” I don’t know about you but folks 
who have a documented history of violating the law and a brazen disrespect 
for it scare me.

Lastly, I do think that both you and Pat underestimate what I consider to be 
the evil of Doug Wilson. Part of it is that you focus on the second matter, 
completely forgetting about the third one. It is one thing to believe — as 
Pat apparently does — that the Bible ‘says’ that ‘homosexuality’ 
is wrong. I would dispute that (not that you couldn’t find supporting 
words for the claim, but that those words best convey Christ’s message). 
Here we are back to the second matter, a disagreement about interpretation 
of a holy text. But interpretation is one thing. If the CC/NSA crowd did 
nothing more than collect bizarre religious views (forgetting, of course 
about the first matter) I would ignore them completely. I myself have a 
collection of bizarre religious beliefs, so I see no harm in this. BELIEF is 
one thing; ACTION is another. Once those beliefs are manifested in some 
actish fashion — whether it is in the form of changing Moscow’s laws 
about proper dress or !
  speaking out in an offensive and repulsive way — I feel it is my right, 
in fact my obligation, to respond.

Many of the folks in my own church believe that ‘homosexuality’ is wrong 
and I get along with all of them just fine. What they do not do is 
continually write and say offensive things about gays and lesbians. Of 
course, people have a right to express their beliefs. But no one has a right 
to be deliberately offensive and those that choose to express their beliefs 
had better recognize my right to rebut them.

For more on the evil of Doug Wilson you might check out poohsthink.com and 
note that our own Michael Metzler is about to be excommunicated from CC. 
What was his sin? Openly disagreeing with Doug Wilson. I won’t say that CC 
is a cult. That would be offensive to the members of that church, most of 
whom I do not know and many of whom seem to be to be wonderful, intelligent 
people. I will say that Doug Wilson often acts as if he was the leader of a 
cult and that concerns me.

Best, Joe Campbell

---- Phil Nisbet <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com> wrote:

=============
Joan and Pat

I know that that is not the case for you and Rose and several others, Joan,
but there are folks who really do attack almost anybody with a religious
faith, some of whom post here.  Pat is sincere in her concerns.

Pat, Joan and Rose and a number of other people who post here are not
whistling Dixie when they say that their problem is with the outside of
church actions of some groups.

The post I made with regard to the subject was intended to ask those who say
that religion is an evil and a blight, why are they confining their attacks
to what some of them have referred to as the “Hebraic G-d"?  Jews and
Christians are not stoning people to death any more, for all the grumbling
of some.

Both of you are compassionate people and I find it hard to believe that
either of you would like to see public stoning, mutilation or any of that
sort of justice here.  I know that Joan is as outraged as any with the kinds
of actions that are occurring in the pure Islamic Religious States and from
previous posts she has included that in her ire.

I previously posted an article about a 16 year old girl who was hung by the
neck until dead at the end of a construction boom for promiscuity in Iran.
Not one of the guys who slept with her got the rope.

I have seen very westernly dressed exchange students at Winco, come in one
day with friends and load up on beer and the next day they are into the
store with the little lady, who is covered from head to toe with only eyes
showing walking dutifully behind him.

In Indonesia, Christians, Jews and Buddhists are routinely set upon by
crowds of fanatics and hacked to death.

The central government in Sudan, an Islamic law nation, has murdered close
to 250,000 non-Moslems in a very planned genocide in Dafur.

So, yes there is a culture war out there, but its not the minor skirmish
happening in Moscow Idaho.  The extremist wing of Islam really does want to
convert the world at the edge of the sword and they feel perfectly justified
in doing so.  They make the Aryan Nations look like the boy scouts and
unlike the weird skin head types, not many of us know enough about these
guys to tell them from a red, white and blue American Moslem.

If we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow morning, we are still going to be in a war
with Islamic Extremism.  We of the Western World, with our toleration and
cultural diversity and religious freedoms are anathema to these guys.  What
we stand for they do not want and they also do not want us as anything but
second class citizens under their own Islamic Laws.

Write the wrong cartoon, or book or spoof and regardless of where you are,
they can and will target you.  They imposed a death sentence on a well known
film director in the Netherlands, rioted to keep a production of a play
against honor killings from being shown in England and just threatened
bombing of a Danish newspaper for the cartoon mentioned.  So this is not
some problem in some distant corner of the world that we can seal ourselves
off from.  People are being killed in the Philippines, in Thailand, in
Indonesia, in Sri Lanka, in Africa and in one heck of a lot of the rest of
the world so that this group can impose its beliefs on the globe.

I guess I have to ask all of you who post here, what’s more important, the
battles and quibbles we fight over at the margins here or trying to see that
Islamic Extremism does not prevail?  Have any of you figured out yet that
our warring with each other simply frees these fanatics to pick us all off?

Phil Nisbet

PS  This is not an indictment of the general Islamic community, because the
majority of moslems are indeed peace loving folks.  The problem is that the
fanatic arms of their religion make up a block of close to 100,000,000 who
are not peace loving.  Appeasement ala Chamberlian in Muncih is no answer,
because just as in 1938, the real war will end up on our doorstep.




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