[Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore Gras"Killing Babies!

Sun Aug 27 18:11:38 PDT 2006

We're kind of going in a circle here, Donovan, since I've responded to this charge already -- a long time ago! I'm not seeking moral perfection, I'm just trying to be as good of a person as I can be. One day I might stop eating chickens but not because of fallacious arguments like this one.

Also, both you and Doug have failed to respond to my original point -- the one that caused Doug to issue me the challenge. In as much as there is a similarity between the arguments used by the anti-abortion folks and the animal rights folks AND you think that the former are sound, then you should become a vegetarian! The fact that you are not a vegetarian suggests that the arguments are not as similar as you are pretending them to be!

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: 

=============
Joe,

 Chickens are killed after 42 days. They are about 1 and  1/2 years old (in chicken years) before we kill them.This for what is  suppose to be a 7-10 year life span. Hope to see you out there  boycotting all places that sell chicken. 

 I also want to  point out, a duck doesn't know what happened yesterday, or what it had  for lunch, so 15 days, one day, or one hour is rather irrelevant. It  doesn't sit there and contemplate the previous or next meal.  It  doesn't sit there and think, "Oh no, not again!"

  Best,

  _DJA

Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:If  an abortion took 15-18 days, my views on the comparitive difference  between abortion and fois gras would be different, Donovan.
--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold  wrote: 

=============
Saundra,

  Stop twisting everything people say and believe into something they didn't say or believe.

  I know very well that birds do suffer. I did not say they didn't. I said that they DID NOT SUFFER AS MUCH AS AN ABORTED FETUS.

  Is that clear? Is that a hard concept to understand? I don't think it is. 

  Situation ONE: A fetus has its head popped off and sucked up a tube. 

  Situation TWO: A bird is force fed. 

  Which do think is MORE painful? Head popping off human fetus, or a bird getting a tube down its throat.

  If you are confused as to which would be more painful, TRY BOTH and let us know.

  "And, these individual sentient beings are absolutely needlessly subjected to
  *their* pain and suffering and terror over and over and over and over again."

  Actually, they are only forced fed for the last 15-18 days of their  life, the rest the time they roam freely on open ranges. Chickens,  pigs, cattle, fish, and other creatures suffer for an even longer  period of time and under greater cruel circumstances. These animals are  sold everywhere in Moscow and around the world, even at the Co-Op.

  Saundra, you know, as well as I that you are not concerned about a duck  who dies from liver illness three days prior to being slaughtered  anyway. You care about making more trouble for ANYONE who is remotely  connected to Doug Wilson. It is time for you go find another hobby and  stop dragging and manipulating young college students with good  intentions into your hidden agendas with sinister intentions. 

  Best,

  _DJA

Saundra Lund  wrote:  Visionaries:

I swore I wasn't going to get sucked into any more ridiculous discussions
with Donovan's disingenuous posts, and I'm not.

I will, however, say I'm disappointed in -- but not surprised by --
Donovan's selective quoting.  The very next sentence in the Wikipedia
article Donovan selectively quoted is:
"The committee did not observe any signs that animals appreciated being
force fed, and observed that ducks attempted to move away when their feeder
entered the room."

I'll state the obvious that apparently escapes Donovan:  one doesn't need to
look at blood hormones to know that the ducks & geese used in foie gras
production suffer.  The *simple* physiological evidence is clear:  they
struggle to get away, they vomit, they die in the forced feeding process.
This is something simple observation documents.  The heart and respiration
rates show changes that indicate physiological stress/pain.

And, these individual sentient beings are absolutely needlessly subjected to
*their* pain and suffering and terror over and over and over and over again.

Given the extensive education Donovan claims, it is shocking to me that he's
trying to deny something so obvious as the suffering inherent in the
"production" of foie gras.  I can certainly understand that some people just
don't know what's involved in foie gras production, but it is beyond me what
Donovan hopes to accomplish by minimizing and denying the very real and
repeated suffering clearly experienced by these sentient beings.

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra Lund.
Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum
without the express written permission of the author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:21 PM
To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore
Gras"Killing Babies!

Saundra,

You huffed:

"That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense is:
cite your sources, Donovan."

In response to my statement:

"In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive evidence
that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress than that
of a duck being forced fed."

I have done my research to bad you cannot conduct some yourself,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras
 In regards to forced feeding:

"The EU (European Union) committee carried out several tests designed to
detect pain or distress by looking at blood hormones and all of them were
inconclusive or without any measurable difference to similarly raised
animals."

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/
 In regards to pain felt by a fetus:

"Numerous lines of evidence suggest that even in the human fetus, pain
pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain
perception are well developed late in gestation, and the neurochemical
systems now known to be associated with pain transmission and modulation are
intact and functional. Physiologic responses to painful stimuli have been
well documented in neonates of various gestational ages and are reflected in
hormonal, metabolic, and cardiorespiratory changes similar to but greater
than those observed in adult subjects."

Fetuses feel more pain when their heads pop off during an abortion procedure
than a goose or duck during the time that the animal is being fed. That is
scientifically documented.

Best,

_DJA

Saundra Lund  wrote:

 Donovan Arnold wrote:
 "In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive
evidence
 that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress
than that
 of a duck being forced fed."

 That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense
is:
 cite your sources, Donovan.

 Saundra Lund
 Moscow, ID

 The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to do
 nothing.
 - Edmund Burke

 ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra
Lund.
 Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020
forum
 without the express written permission of the author.***** 

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