[Vision2020] (was "license") men and abortion

Tue Aug 22 08:01:28 PDT 2006

It is a true delight to read such a courageous post from a man taking 
offense at and responsibility for male dominance in society.  James goes on 
to correctly note what many on either side of the abortion debate have said: 
  men have a disproportionate amount of influence not only in many private 
sexual relationships, but in the public discussion of the "choice" issue 
itself.

I say this as someone who believes that life begins at conception and that 
each unborn child, like all people who have ever lived, is created in the 
image of God, and I'd guess that James and I would come to the table with 
differing perspectives and conclusions.  Still, he makes a point that is too 
often lost -- discussions about "nature" are meaningless, really, without an 
infusion of nurture that holds the woman's life in equal regard with the 
baby she carries.  Men have dominated this debate with passionate cries of 
concern for "unborn women," but all too often have proved to care little for 
women, born or unborn.  I think the perspective of many men on the abortion 
issue has been one that reveals an utter disregard for women and a profound 
fear of their sexuality, and I think that if women took control over the 
national discussion on when life begins and how it should end, we'd see a 
society much more favorable to life from conception 'til natural death.

I know some will take offense at James' idea of men protecting women, but 
I'll hazard a guess here:  from his previous posts and the tone of this one, 
it seems clear that he's not talking about a fawning sort of adulation that 
enables a man to "love" a woman without the messy, difficult business of 
actually having to know and connect to her, nor is he calling for a veneer 
of vigilante testosterone to save the day whenever life happens to one of 
the women in his life.  I took what he said in the way I think he intended 
it -- as a call for men to repent of domineering behavior, publicland 
private, and to seek solutions  that nurture and honor women.  Lord knows 
the problem in this society isn't that we've seen too much of that.

Thank you, James.  Tony will undoubtedly try to rip you to shreds, but he 
won't succeed -- your heart and your intellect clearly have set a superior 
tone in your discussion.

keely

From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] License is NOT freedom, dingbat!
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:25:41 -0700

Gary and Tony,

I really only got onto this thread because Tony was becoming a bit too 
hostile to others on the site and I felt it my duty to deflect his anger 
toward me. It is just a habit of mine to engage against unwarranted 
agression. I am older now, but my blood still boils. Now that I am in the 
middle of this with a couple of genuine right-wing nuts, I will try to 
entertain you with my thoughts.

I am not sure of when the assignment of souls occurs during a childs 
development and by your tones I don't believe you have a clue. Spiritual 
leaders differ in their understandings also but the assignment of a 
particular soul to a child is widely used to explain why humans are what we 
are. I have read on the biological development and some on what spiritual 
leaders think and have come understanding that it isn't until late in 
pregnancy. Some spiritual leaders even think the assignment is some time 
after birth. My thought is that if the assignment of soul has not yet 
happened before an abortion then the assignment would occur at a later 
inception. Storks don't really bring babies Gary, that is just in the books 
you read. The biological evidence of the later assignment of the soul, to 
me, comes form the observation that ontogeny does repeat phylogeny. it would 
not make sense to give a human soul to something with gill slits or just a 
notochord.

My practical stand on the issue of abortion is that it is something for 
women to figure out and for men to back them on their decision. It seems to 
me to be very unlikely that Tony is the nurturing person that he tries to 
portray to be concerning abortion. Most men, including myself are simply not 
very nurturing. What is more likely is that Tony wants man to dominate 
woman. He has expressed a non-nurturing attitude in volumes on this list and 
has also demonstrated a demeaning attitude toward women on this list. As a 
little guidance to Tony I would offer to him that a man doesn't and 
shouldn't feel the need to dominate a woman. it is unnecessary and 
counterproductive to a healthy life for both involved for a man to try and 
lord himself over women and it will usually end in a terminated 
relationship. I think a lot of men don't know how to handle their warrior 
self because they were not taught properly to begin with. Women are to be 
revered and protected form physical harm by man. That is man's primary duty. 
The rest of life will take care of itself if you pick up on that. How many 
children do you think would be on this earth if there wasn't this basic 
exchange going on? A good example of this strategy comes from Christian 
doctrine. Remember that the two most important men in the Christian religion 
were born without the influence of man but but both Zecharia (sp) and Joseph 
took their manly chores and supported Elizabeth and Mary. Use this as an 
example and don't assert your manly selves into the realm that belongs to 
woman and God. Us men are the warriors and will always be hounded by this. 
When jesus was born what did man do? He killed all of the babes in the land 
to fulfill some awful destiny that is our curse. We need to keep a handle on 
this fellows.

One thing we men can do to reduce unwanted pregnancies and so abortions is 
to find strict punishments for the men who cause such pregnancies. A good 
punishment might be...to paraphrase Tony... is to rip the genitals from the 
offending male, cut them to pieces and throw them in the trash.

I would like to continue with your teachings on proper manly behavior but I 
must now go to work. Later gentlemen.

James

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