[Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
Joe Campbell
joekc at adelphia.net
Mon Aug 21 07:52:11 PDT 2006
Hansen is right, Crabtree. As I see it, you are making two mistakes.
First, as I said before, criticism of intolerant behavior is not necessarily a display of intolerance. I think that folks who use hate speech are wrong to do so. Likewise with folks who burn flags. I often criticize the former and if I actually knew someone who burned a flag I might criticize the latter. Both, I think, are actions that are done with a desire to agitate not simply to make a point and, for that reason, both deserve criticism.
Second, criticizing hate speech is different from trying to ban hate speech. I might criticize but what I won't do is try to use the law to force folks to stop using hate speech or burning flags. I don't confuse a world where I force people to do what I think is right with a world where people do the right thing. In order to get the former you need to allow for free action and once you do that the possibility of acting wrongly always remains. You have to take the bitter (hate speech, flag burning) with the better (freedom). The best that you can do is to try to convince people, through critical verbal remarks, to do the right thing.
--
Joe Campbell
---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
=============
Mr. Rumelhart brings up an interesting point when he says,"Freedom of Speech is not a piecemeal concept. It has to be all or nothing. The minute you start limiting it, it's usefulness in all areas goes right out the door. Look at "hate speech". This concept is becoming broader by the second in our PC society." It would seem that the folks who would be the first to defend someone's right to burn our flag would loudly howl if a disparaging term was used by someone to express an "unapproved" opinion with regard to minorities, women, homosexuals, food animals, or what have you. These "patriots" are mighty quick to celebrate diversity and dissent as long as its the right kind. Gore their ox and their much yapped about tolerance flies out the window.
gc
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
I'm sure you've heard all these reasons before, but I'll outline a few just in case you've missed them.
- Burning the American flag falls under Freedom of Speech. Yes, it's not "speech" per se, but the courts have extended the concept of "speech" to cover most forms of expression, not just the spoken word.
- Freedom of Speech is not a piecemeal concept. It has to be all or nothing. The minute you start limiting it, it's usefulness in all areas goes right out the door. Look at "hate speech". This concept is becoming broader by the second in our PC society.
- Burning a flag is an expression of dissent. Of all types of speech, the expressions of dissent are in most need of protection. Without it, you have a tyrrany.
- Freedom is difficult. If you give someone the freedom to say whatever they like, they may say something that annoys or disgusts or offends you. That is the price of freedom. For example, I wish that people would stop burning the American flag; it just leads to emotion-driven reactions instead of rational, thoughtful reactions. However, they have the right to express their dissent in whatever way they choose whether I like it or not. Freedom is worth it, though.
- Even if you can in no way think that this administration has done anything that people should be making such politically-charged statements like burning the flag, what about the next one? Or the next? What if your worst nightmare came into office? I don't know for you if that's Hillary Clinton, Butch Otter, the Antichrist, or Marilyn Manson - but whoever it is, what if you did not have the freedom to express your dissent? What if they changed all the rules and made this country into whatever it is you fear they will make it into?
- Being a patriot does not mean cowtowing to whoever is in charge. What if our founding fathers thought that way? The Constitution is a document of checks and balances. Freedom of Speech and the Right to Bear Arms are two powerful tools we have been given to use as checks against a government that might get out of control.
- Assaulting someone (or is it battery? I get them confused) is orders of magnitude worse than an expression of dissent. There you are treading on the rights of another individual. The fact that you don't see an overwhelming difference between the two of them frightens me.
Anyway, I'm sure there are others. I'm also sure you actually agree with some of them to some extent or you wouldn't be proud to live here.
Paul
-
Tony Simpson wrote:
Leave it to a subversive Hippie like Bill London to praise those who would
burn the American flag. Pathetic and loathsome. Flower child London says,
"If I chose to desecrate a flag by burning it in an open place.... so what?
That is free speech."
What pure, unadulterated horseshit! There is no speech involved in such a
juvenile, thoughtless, ungrateful and snotnosed activity. It is
unpatriotic, typically liberal acting out. If that is free speech, Billy
Boy, then it would be free speech for me to walk up to said burner and bury
my boot a foot up his terrorist--enabling ass!
Sick to death of America's domestic enemies, --TONY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
To: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>; <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>;
<sslund at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
Since you asked.....
a few of my reasons why I think a Constitutional amendment against
desecrating the flag is stupid....
1. what is the problem? how many descrated flags are there?
2. if I own the flag and choose to desecrate it by burning it in an open
place that will not cause a general fire, so what? That is free speech.
The flag is a symbol, and burning it is Constitutionally-protected.
3. what is desecration? wearing a flag on the butt of your jeans?
wrapping
your used car in flags to sell it at a used car lot? getting a tattoo of
flag upside down? Boy Scouts burning old flags?
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
To: <london at moscow.com>; <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>;
<sslund at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
Mr. London,
And just as they should. Why shouldn't the congress take one day out of
their schedule in order to make flag burning an offense? If they focus on
baseball why not on the flag?
Matt
From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>, <sslund at adelphia.net>,
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:33:43 -0700
Yes, it is true that Chicago has (for the reasons Ms. Lund has
enumerated)
banned foie gras, because of the disgusting and inhumane way the birds
are
force-fed to create these inflated livers. Chicago has not banned duck
liver, only foie gras.
And as for the reason, it's all a question of values, as the Republicans
say every year when they try to amend the US Constitution to end the
non-existant problem of people burning US flags.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: kerry becker
To: sslund at adelphia.net ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
This is absurd. The city of Chicago has taken the time to ban duck
liver?? - Meanwhile the inner city runs rampant with crime, poverty and
drugs. Odd really.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at adelphia.net>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:38:46 -0700
>Visionaries:
>
>I have debated and debated about whether to post this or not, but
I'd
hate
>for an unsuspecting person to go to West of Paris only to be
horrified.
>
>I was deeply disappointed to see that West of Paris will be
selling
foie
>gras:
>http://www.westofparis.com/dinner_menu.html
>For that reason alone, I will refuse to patronize the business, no
matter
>how delicious other menu items look or sound -- it's a matter of
ethics for
>me.
>
>The process used to make foie gras is animal cruelty, pure and
simple
:-(((
>Fifteen nations (including the UK, the Czech Republic, Denmark,
Finland,
>Germany, Luxembourg, Norway, Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, and
Israel
--
>formerly the fourth largest producer in the world) have banned
force-feeding
>birds for foie gras production. The City of Chicago has banned
the
sale of
>foie gras, and Philadelphia is likely to follow. Beginning 2012,
the
>production and sale of foie gras from force-fed birds will be
banned
in the
>State of California.
>
>I won't go into the horrifying and graphic details of how foie
gras
is
>produced, but for those who want to learn more, you can check out:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras
>You can also Google it, but WARNING: there's a lot of deeply
disturbing
>(although accurate) information and photos you'll find.
>
>Very disappointing that foie gras will be sold in *any* Moscow
restaurant
>:-(((
>
>
>JMNSHO,
>Saundra Lund
>Moscow, ID
>
>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people
to do
>nothing.
>- Edmund Burke
>
>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006,
Saundra
Lund.
>Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision
2020
forum
>without the express written permission of the author.*****
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>On Behalf Of Daniel Foucachon
>Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:59 PM
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
>
> West of Paris<http://www.westofparis.com/images/west_paris.gif>
>Grand Opening
>Friday, August 18th, 2006
>
>Now accepting reservations
>
>Call (208) 882-4279
>
>www.westofparis.com <http://www.westofparis.com/> | opening at
6:00
p.m.
>
>
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
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