[Vision2020] To question is certainly sensible.....
Joe Campbell
joekc at adelphia.net
Mon Aug 14 07:59:23 PDT 2006
Tony,
Most contemporary physicists hold a relational view of time: time is nothing over and above a sequence of events. Newton held the opposite view and thought (in at least some of his writings) that time was something separate from and over and above the worldly events (this is the absolute view of time). For Newton, time was like a container which contained events. Thus, for Newton, even if nothing is happening it still makes sense to say that time exists whereas for the relational theorist this does not make sense.
According to Big Bang Theory, the world began as a tiny point where nothing was happening and then we get the Big Bang -- "an infinite expanse filled with an infinite array of matter," as you say. In the move from point to bang we have change and thus time, according to the relational theorist. But prior to the bang there is no change and thus no time.
So the relational theorist does not think that time is a "method by which we reference one incident in relation to another," as you say. This is yet a third view about the nature of time.
Personally, I also question whether the relational view of time makes sense. Physicists like the view since it goes well with materialism: the view that nothing exists save for the material world. For on the relational theory, time and even space are mere relations between events and physical objects, not mysterious container like substances. It seems, though, that we can ask, how long did the universe exist as a mere point? But to the relational theorist this question makes no sense. Part of me wants to say, So much the worse for the relational theorist! But part of me recognizes that it might just be my own absolutist prejudices and inability to grasp the relational view that makes me think the way I do.
Note that this discussion comes after your suggestion to Paul that God might have started the Big Bang. Paul responded by saying that there was no time prior to the Big Bang -- no when for God's creation to take place. Your suggestion that the world's existence might be infinite is not at all helpful to the creation theorist, for if the world is infinite there is no need for God to create it!
Lastly, you ask: "And in an infinite expanse filled with an infinite array of matter, must there not also be an infinite variety of life forms scattered about it?" The answer is "No." Consider the set of all even numbers. It is infinite in number but there are no odd numbers in the set. Even the infinite has its limitations!
--
Joe Campbell
---- Tony Simpson <tonytime at clearwire.net> wrote:
=============
Paul,
Time did not exist before the Big Bang? Why not? Is not time simply a human construct? A method by which we reference one incident in relation to another?
The Big Bang the start of "space time"? What is Space time? My understanding of the theory is that all existing matter in the universe existed in a very dense state at one particular point in, mind you, an endless void stretching in all directions. Then, BANG it explodes outward and to this day, continues to expand. Presumably at some point the expansion will slow, stop and then reverse eventuating in another dense collection which would then re explode over and over.....
Well.
Problem is, if the universe is without end at all, how could something without ANY perimeter, expand or contract at all? One could theorize that the universe is endless in all directions, but that the matter we view in its varied forms only exists in our relatively immediate vicinity. Then there would be a perimeter providing a point of reference for an expansion or contraction. But what of the void which extends, presumably in all directions without end? Why would there be a small collection of matter at this particular vicinity and not scattered about infinitely as well? Is there some other form of matter or void that we haven't the capacity to conceive of? And in an infinite expanse filled with an infinite array of matter, must there not also be an infinite variety of life forms scattered about it? How could there not? We are talking of an infinite universe WITHOUT a perimeter. Without any fixed point from which to reference from.
I don't anticipate learning the answers to these questions in this lifetime, but it would be fascinating, would it not? For there ARE answers. There must be. Would our minds be capable, from their limited frame of reference, of grasping those answers?
This post risks becoming as endless as the universe itself, so g'nite all.
Happy contemplating, --Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
The Big Bang, from what I understand, was the start of spacetime, not just space. Time did not exist before the Big Bang, so it makes no sense to ask what happened before it. The commonly used analogous question is: "what is north of the North Pole?"
And, yes, I don't think we'll ever really know the answer to such questions. All we can do is study the world around us, hypothesize, make predictions, and see if our guesses hold up to scrutiny and observable evidence.
Paul
Tony Simpson wrote:
Just curious Paul, What happened 20 minutes before the big bang? There can not have been a beginning, could there? Something, in some form must have preceded it... certainly at least empty space existed.
Isn't it a little silly of us to think we can ever answer such questions?
--T----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Unfortunately, the evidence seems to point towards the Big Bang. The ratio of hydrogen to helium in the observable universe can be calculated based on the conditions that the universe would have had within the first five minutes of the Big Bang with a fairly good degree of accuracy. The light that was being scattered all around by un-attached electrons and protons was predicted to have suddenly been able to shine out in a massive wave once the universe cooled to the right amount (about 300,000 years after the Big B) and the scattered electrons, protons, and neutrons combined together and stopped bouncing the light every which way. It was predicted that we would be able to observe this wave of light, highly red-shifted, once our technology got better. It was observed and was named the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB). Observed galaxies were more red-shifted the farther away they were, which matched the theory. Young baby galaxies are found mostly on the fringes of the universe, which you would expect based on the theory. Small variations in the CMB were predicted because our galaxies could not have clumped together otherwise. These variations were eventually found. The theory is consistent with General Relativity. There is no evidence for anything being older than 20 billion years, so if the universe had no beginning, why don't we see things older than that? There are others, I'm sure. I'm not a cosmologist, just interested in the subject matter.
Anyway, I'll leave Science to study the What, When, Where and How of the universe. Theology can have Who and Why.
Paul
g. crabtree wrote:
All of creation the result of a sudden "big bang," the result of nobody
knows what or everything the result of an omnipotent Creator. Both seem
improbable but if I have to pick one, I like the idea of a benevolent, if
somewhat inscrutable God. I know for an absolute fact from youthful
experimentation that large explosions don't love me. (I'm mighty fond of
them, however. Talk about your unrequited affection.)
gc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
To: <deco at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
W,
So according to you, anyone who has a tiny bit of religous faith in them
is
pathetically weak? Man I guess the billions that live in this world who
have
that faith are weak. Heck I tend to think one who can live their life
with
that belief of an unproven higher being as their creator, as more stronger
than one who can't even fathom that maybe, just maybe something is out
there.
Matt
From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:46:03 -0700
Dick,
Again your ignorance is appalling.
I am a nonbeliever (not an atheist) which means that I believe the
evidence
purporting to establish supernatural claims including religious ones is
such that the probability of the truth of any such claim is very close to
zero. I remain open to new, verifiable evidence on the subject. The
evidence given by the state of the world today is greatly against the
existence of a benevolent, powerful deity. If such a state is evidence of
a deity, it is evidence of a sadistic, bumbling one. Any fool who reads
the news can see this. But you are not just any fool, you are a special
one.
I am sorry that you are so pathetically weak that you cannot live
comfortably without your religious fantasies -- some of which appear to be
crueler than those of Hitler.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Sherwin
To: Vision2020 ; Art Deco
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
What is appaling to me is your total loyalty to the cult of atheism which
is little more than a religion of rejection of God.
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Your ignorance is appalling.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Sherwin
To: Art Deco
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
I do not condem Christianity, or consider it a cult. You have quoted
>from the Old Testament law, which was mitigated by Jesus through
atonement.
Christians believe all sins not reiterated from the Old Testament to
the
New Testament were atoned for through the blood of Christ.
Sorry, your little rouse was for no effect, unless you can quote to me
>from the New Testament where these laws were carried forth from the OT.
Dick S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Dick,
You write:
"I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as they believe,
so long as their religion does not preach death and destruction on others
because of their beliefs. "
Do you then roundly and unequivocally condemn the religious cult that
holds the following views?
W.
http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm
"The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the
wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without
guidance
on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of
judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include
premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery,
homosexuality, and cursing one's parents..."
"In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is
punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The
magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some
Christians
believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that the
"harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is
the
result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further
application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem. Too
often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is
called pity."
"If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter,
the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly
entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall not
consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall
you
spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him..." [Heresy:
Beware, ye not of the cult (including unconverted Jews)!]
"If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue
her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand
and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye
shall not pity her..."
God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the
criminal.
If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the
punishment. Your eye shall not pity. Neither is the repentance of the
accused relevant to the imposition of the sentence.
"Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has
decided the matter. The [civil] magistrate, God's minister, is to
faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's... This
means that we must return to an obedience which confines pity within the
bounds which God has established for us."
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Sherwin
To: Vision2020 ; Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Paul Rumelhart wrote: "Your standards are too low. How about you
are
a True American if the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important
to you? That includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish,
or none at all."
___________________________________________
Personally, I am a little weary of embracing the "whatever religion
you wish" syndrone. I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as
they believe, so long as their religion does not preach death and
destruction on others because of their beliefs. I am tired of the
so-called "Religion of Peace" and their attempts to acquire maximum kill
with their terrorist acts.
As I said in my original post,
"I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate. I realize there
are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to say
is, "Oh well!"
May God bless you, even if you don't believe in Him.
Dick S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart
To: Vision2020
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
That's what it takes to be a True American? Not to be afraid to
show you are a christian? Not to burn the flag? To respect veterans and
your elders?
Well, I almost made it. I'm not christian, so apparently I can't
be
a True American. Wonderful.
Your standards are too low. How about you are a True American if
the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important to you? That
includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish, or none at
all.
If you support the First Amendment, I would say you are on the path
to being a "True American". If you care for your rights and the rights of
others equally, I'd say you are a True American. If you get enraged when
politicians "game the system", you are a True American.
If you get angry when someone claims they are a "Patriot" when they
really mean that they blindly support the government or the status quo,
you
are a True American. Look up what it really means to be a Patriot
sometime. Start by imagining the courage it took for the Founding Fathers
to sign the Declaration of Independence and ponder what would have
happened
to each of them if the revolution had failed.
The true values of this country are getting lost in this
"Christians
- the World's Only Persecuted Majority" crap. What values that have
managed to squeak through that mess are wantonly being pulverised by
Corporate America. I'd say the truest sign of whether or not you are a
True American is if you have had it up to here with all the crap that has
happened in the last couple of decades.
Paul
Dick Sherwin wrote:
I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate. I realize
there are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to
say is, "Oh well!"
Dick S.
It is time to change from REDNECK humor to TRUE AMERICAN
Humor! Only I don't see it as Humor, but the correct way to LIVE YOUR
LIFE ! If you feel the same, pass this on to your True American
friends.
Ya'll know who ya' are...
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: It never occurred to you to
be
offended by the phrase, "One nation, under God."
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You've never protested about
seeing the 10 Commandments posted in public places.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You still say "Christmas"
instead of "Winter Festival."
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You bow your head when someone
prays.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You stand and place your hand
over your heart when they play the National Anthem.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You treat Viet Nam vets with
great respect, and always have.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You've never burned an
American
flag.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You know what you believe and
you aren't afraid to say so, no matter who is listening.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You respect your elders and
expect your kids to do the same.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You'd give your last dollar to
a friend.
If you got this email from me, it is because I believe that you,
like me, have just enough TRUE AMERICAN in you to have the same
beliefs as those talked about in this email.
God Bless the U S A ! and may the U.S.A. BEGIN TO PRAISE
AND
WORSHIP GOD the way we used to!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list