[Vision2020] True Muslims and True Americans

[nickgier at adelphia.net]

Greetings:

Before answering the Princess, I wanted to point out that Muslims groups all over the world, as they have done before, have condemned the latest terrorist plans to blow up airplanes.  These are the Muslims that we ought to respect and support, just as we should suppport moderate Christians against the destructive path of the Religious Right.  We should also support the evangelicals who have also criticized the theocrats.

By saying the blood is not the issue in Christian atonement, the Princess is conceding my point about "actual blood sacrifice" being a very primitive notion of atonement, and one that should be rejected.  And that was the point of the comment that my Indian Christian friend made after singing hymns talking about being "cleansed by the blood of the Lamb."

I want to remind people that Jones, who pushes Trinitarianism every chance he gets, cannot even begin to defend the doctrine.  My challenge that Wilson & Co. are Tritheists remains unanswered, and you can review this exchange at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/trinity.htm.

With regard to the Trinity and the Crucifixion, I want to issue another challenge to Jones.  If there is a necessary and eternal bound among the Persons of the Trinity, how could it possibly change?  But Jones tells us that Jesus's death on the Cross "meant the severing of an eternal bond: the separation of the eternal Son from the eternal Father. . . ."  

Orthodox Christianity either stands with the Greeks on timeless, immutable divinity (Jones usually hates Greek influences on Christian theology), or switches to the dynamic deity of process theology. I support Christian process theologians because the Greek model cannot begin to express either Incarnation or Atonement.  For more on process theology, see www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/process.htm.

l don't know where to begin in commenting on Jones' views on Buddhism.  It just goes to prove the old adage that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

First, there are just as many legends about Jesus as there are about the Buddha, and I'm confident that both of them would be embarrassed by these pious fabrications.  The historical Gautama is also just as well attested as the historical Jesus.

Second, I elevate both Christ and Buddha as spiritual leaders because of their total inclusiveness, their admonitions about "judge not lest ye be judged," and their emphasis on conduct rather than doctrine.

Third, Buddhism has more early texts than Christianity because the Buddha preached for 45 years while Jesus preached for 1-3 years depending on which Gospel you consult.  These teachings were well attested in time and place and were memorized by thousands of monks on the dictation of Ananda, the Buddha's closest disciple who never left his side.  Memorizing texts preserve them far more accurately than writing them down.

Fourth, in these early sutras the Buddha is very clear about what is real and what is not. Contrary to Jones' caricature, the Buddha speaks many words about things that we can actually experience. His sophisticated empiricism has been compared to David Hume, but it is closer to William James.  It is a tribute to the Buddha's insights that they have been confirmed by contemporary physics.

Fifth, these original teachings of the Buddha were not "thrown out the window," but are followed by thousands of devout Buddhists in Southeast Asia.  The Buddha would have been embarrrassed by the Pure Land sects to which Jones refers.

Sixth, these original teachings do not hold that reality is either one or illusory.  In our Trinity debate I've corrected Jones on this, but he prefers to repeat errors and confusions about other religions rather than allow them to creatively interpenetrate one another. 

The Princess continues to twist what Paul and I have said about religious freedom, so I don't think that continued debate on this subject is worth our while. 

Nick Gier, proud to be the "Nutty" Professor

My daily intake of Mixed Nuts is one of my day's greatest joys, and is no doubt one of the reasons why my doctor just told me that I am "an exceptionally healthy gentleman."