[Vision2020] public school job training
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 10 08:05:13 PDT 2006
Keely,
I never said it would be easy to implement. In fact, I think it would be really tough work, work beyond the willingness or capability of many people in the MSD. You are right we would have to replace many of them with people that were more highly motivated and inventive then just throwing the taxpayer's dollars at their problems.
Your email, as usual, had many factual errors in it. One important one was where you say that teachers starting salaries are set by the state. This is incorrect, they only set the lowest salary possible for a starting teachers, which is what MSD pays its teachers. If it was lower, you would be paying them lower, no doubt. There is NO law preventing the MSD Board and yourself from paying teachers more money, you just didn't want to, so don't go that route.
But I do think it is feasible to change our school system that has been operating as though we are graduating students that will enter American Society in the year 1906.
I am also aware you and the local school board cannot change much, because the Idaho State Legislature doesn't want to give you any power, quiet frankly, I can honestly see why in many regards since MSD has demonstrated a poor ability to use public dollars wisely. It needs to be done on a state level.
I have been to no less than 12 public schools in my lifetime. I have found many obese and unhealthy PE and health teachers, math teachers that could not add, and coaches that were trying to teach government, history and geography. I had many teachers where putting a mirror under their nose was the only way to know if they were still alive, they never did diddly, never tried to motivate students, be creative, interact, they just sit there and say read the chapter and answer the question on the worksheet.
I think teachers should be paid a good wage at start, say $32-36K depending on the field. Then pay more based on performance and experience. This way a good motivated teacher that is successful can make a good living, and the rotten ones that just sit around and do nothing cannot get paid well just because their ass has been in a chair longer, they can stay at $32K a year. This is the way the real world works.
It also isn't solely about money. St. Mary's way outperforms MSD and it operates on a very tiny budget and against a hostile over regulatory city government. And St. Mary's kids are not just the gifted ones. Children can be successful without always throwing more money at the problems of educating them.
Having school for 14 years, from 5 years old to 19 years old would afford two more years of education for students, and give them a vocational skill or two years of college to help them make a living when they graduate.
In terms of greater funding, hospitals, truck driving companies, plumbing companies, HVAC companies, Computer companies, architecture firms, and many others are hurting for qualified and trained workers, why are our schools not matching these students with these jobs?
Best,
_DJA
keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote: I'm not on the school board any more, although I am still vice-chair of
Region II for the Idaho School Boards Association. I'm fairly well
acquainted, I think, with a few things regarding this issue. One is that
Donovan's ideas, below, while I'm sure sincerely held, are not as easy to
implement as he'd like us to think. The other thing I know is that arguing
with Donovan is a fruitless proposition. Still, his ideas prompt me to
comment, however briefly:
Year-round school cannot be accomplished by superintendent or school board
fiat. Parents, teachers, administrators, non-certificated staff and
virtually everyone in the community would be affected, and to think that
staging year-round schools is easy to decide and simple to implement is
absurd -- no matter what the benefit, it's not like staging a prom, a
community forum, or, as Donovan so indelicately put it in an earlier post,
referring to the Facility Committee's work on last year's bond, a teenage
pot-smoking circle. Perhaps there's benefit to having class throughout the
year. However, there is no benefit, or justice, to assuming that that
hasn't been decided on solely to tick off constituents -- most of whom would
give new meaning to "ticked off" if the district proposed it.
I believe that teachers generally earn too little. However, beginning
salaries are mandated by the legislature, and if higher-paid teachers earn
"two times what the average household in Latah County makes," then the
problem is not teacher pay. I suspect that Donovan's figures include
single-student households, but I don't know. What I do know is that no one
I'm acquainted with has ever gone into K-12 teaching because of the windfall
salary opportunities.
Last, the idea that schools are requiring courses that are "useless in
modern society" AND that they should adopt a 14-year model to allow them to
socialize and train children in citizenship, work skills, social skills,
Ninja and bowstaff skills, hygiene, reading, composition, math, science, and
the etiquette of community email forum usage is puzzling. The federal
government, which, under Ronald Reagan, considered eliminating a
Cabinet-level Department of Education has now become heavy-handed and
stifling in its control of public education. Curriculum options are
narrowing because of No Child Left Behind, just as the public and the
private sector are demanding increased access to job training. A curious
thing here is that when colleges, universities, and private enterprise are
willing and able to step alongside the schools to provide job training,
communities often find that they lack the physical facilities required to
house such programs. Auto mechanics, computer training, nursing and EMT
training, shop and vocational courses, electronics and other programs cannot
be housed in buildings that are inadequate even for their current usage, and
when voters choose not to invest in new, modern, technologically forward
buildings, it's difficult to assume that the private sector will shoulder
the entire cost. And even if they did, students enrolled in public schools
still have federal and state requirements that have to be met -- a reality
that can be difficult for private enterprise to accommodate, and evidently
impossible for Donovan to understand.
So I write this more for those who might be inclined to jump on the "schools
don't care about job training" bandwagon. They do. Often, though, those
who yell the loudest against public schools are those who refuse to lend
their support when given an opportunity to do so.
keely
From: Donovan Arnold
To: Tom Hansen , 'Tom Ivie' ,
'keely emerinemix' , gweitz at moscow.com,
ringoshirl at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Response to Hansen
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:50:37 -0700 (PDT)
Hansen,
MSD is wasting a great deal of money in everything they are doing. 1) Not
having year around school. 2) Starting teachers off at starvation wages
then raising them to 2x times the average household makes in Latah. 3)
Requiring courses that are useless in modern society.
Answer to question two. Every business invests money in hiring and
training employees. The public can split the cost with the businesses. We
train a student to be a nurse, truck driver, HVAC, etc, upon hirer, that
business pays half the cost of the education of that student for that
specific skill learned, that money goes to the school to educate the next
student for a job. Many business have to front this whole cost of training
and educating themselves. It would help both the schools and the
businesses.
Answer to your third question: I would combine the first two years of
college with are regular education. You do that by starting the children in
school one year earlier and letting them out one year later. When
students went to college for a four year degree, two years would already
have been completed. Every student would leave school with a skill that
would translate to employment upon graduation. This is what school was
originally for, but somehow lost its purpose and focus.
Best,
_DJA
Tom Hansen wrote: v\:*
{behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:*
{behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Question:
Specifically speaking, how is the Moscow School District “wasting money in
our current school system?”
Mr. Arnold stated:
“Second, they can get the private sector to help out in many job
fields. A company wants nothing more than a bunch of highly trained workers
straight out of school.”
Question #1: Who are “they”?
Question #2: Specifically speaking, how can they “get the private
sector to help out in many job fields?”
By “straight out of school”, do you mean high school or college?
Judging by your daunting support for a WalMart Super Center, I assume that
you mean “straight out of high school” as most (if not all) college
graduates are seeking jobs that evolve into professional careers. If this
is true, perhaps you would strongly support the concept of vocational high
schools (which are fairly common in Europe) which would produce “highly
trained workers straight out of school”
Your thoughts?
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"Only by going too far can one possibly find out how far
one can go."
- Jon Dyer
---------------------------------
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 7:10 AM
To: Tom Ivie; keely emerinemix; gweitz at moscow.com;
ringoshirl at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Minimum wage
Tom,
You can pay for it by getting the MSD to stop wasting money in our
current school system. Second, they can get the private sector to help out
in many job fields. A company wants nothing more than a bunch of highly
trained workers straight out of school. Third, if the MSD would come up
with a proposal that didn't sound like something contrived during a high
school pot smoking circle they might be able gain community support.
Best,
_DJA
Tom Ivie wrote:
How do you pay for that when we can't even pass bonds for buildings and
the state has to step in to fund that?
Donovan Arnold wrote:
. . ."under Donovan's plan, parents will have tons more free time --
what with being excused from the kinds of things most of us signed up for
as
parents -- and will then form roaming street gangs or start smoking or
having sex."-- Keely Mix
Keely,
I know you are the expert on education being on the school board and
all. But, as I understand it, all parents have already been having sex.
_DJA
keely emerinemix wrote:
Of course, under Donovan's plan, parents will have tons more free time
--
what with being excused from the kinds of things most of us signed up for
as
parents -- and will then form roaming street gangs or start smoking or
having sex.
keely
From: Donovan Arnold
To: Jerry Weitz , Shirley Ringo ,
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Minimum wage
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 07:55:21 -0700 (PDT)
Jerry,
I agree with you 100% regarding the workforce training. The school system
needs to start kids one year earlier, let them out one year later ,and
use
those two extra years to train youth a job skill, good work ethic, how to
search for and find a job, keep a job, and advance in that field.
They also need to teach youth how to do taxes, be a responsible member of
the community, build social skills, know first aid and establish healthy
eating habits, and all about how credit and debit works.
In other words, schools need to teach youth the things they are going to
need to know about living in modern society and doing well. So many
things
you learn in school today seem pointless when you get out and never use
it.
You also find yourself hurting in other areas when you are expected to
know
how to do something in life but nobody ever taught you.
Thanks for your email.
Best,
_DJA
Jerry Weitz wrote:
Raising the minimum wage from $5.15 to $6.15 will not help in real
inflation-adjusted buying power--it is too small of an increase. So let’s
discuss the fundamentals. As Virginia’s former Democratic governor Mark
Warner’s track record illustrates, skills training in our high schools
would help increase wages for Idaho’s workforce and encourage more jobs.
With the push for community colleges in the urban areas of Idaho, I
believe
that our local high schools could become the rural equivalent of
community
college. This would cost money and would require a willingness to change
the current high school structure.
The state legislature’s current focus on shifting school funding from
property taxes to the sales tax (the current maintenance and operations
debate) misses the point. Instead of focusing on ways to shift funds, I
would urge consideration for increased funding for the
creation/maintenance
of skills centers in local high schools. Rather than seeking a balanced
taxation approach, the Idaho Education Association has promoted a tax
shift
to the sales tax, which sends a confusing message.
When one examines France, with a high minimum wage, a large
under-skilled/inexperienced segment of its youth, guaranteed employment
contracts, unbending unionization, top down regulations, etc., one
observes
high unemployment, a high cost of living, and extreme social unrest.
What works: 1) create/maintain superior education for both the
college-bound and the non-college-bound, 2) invest in infrastructure, 3)
be
friendly to business, 4) be environmentally wise, and 5) do this without
going deeply into debt, which requires prioritization. Ireland has
followed the above policies with exceptional success. We should follow
the
lead of former governor Warner and Virginia’s Republican legislature and
make these policies non-partisan. From what I’ve learned, Larry Grant,
our
district’s Democratic candidate for Congress, seems to understand this
non-partisan, middle of the road approach.
Jerry
At 11:11 AM 8/7/06, Shirley Ringo wrote:
Visionaries:
I cannot resist the urge to weigh in on the minimum wage issue. I
proposed legislation during the most recent legislative session to raise
the minimum wage to $6.15. It received very little support from
Republicans. (Our District 6 Republicans did support it, and
Representative Trail will co-sponsor the effort with us again next year.)
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
We plan to try again next year, at an amount above $6.15.
Without getting into the usual arguments, it’s unacceptable to have a
minimum wage that leaves those paid at that level in cruel poverty.
Lawmakers have neglected maintenance on minimum wage levels. In 1968, the
minimum wage meant something positive to families. In inflation-adjusted
dollars, it has lost nearly 40% of its value between 1968 and now.
According to polling, the vast majority of Americans believe the minimum
wage should be higher. I believe eighteen states have a minimum wage
higher than the $5.15 federal level, which has not been raised since
1997.
Some of these states have used the initiative process to get results,
where
state legislators would not act on it. In some of these states, there has
been significant help from Republican leaders.
Many claims of negative consequences do not seem to be true. One of the
claims is that jobs will be lost. In the majority of states that have
raised the minimum wage, there has in fact been an increase in jobs. (We
can’t claim the wage increase caused more jobs, but the decrease some
predicted didn’t happen.) An increase in employee productivity and less
absenteeism was reported where the pay level increased.
On the inflation issue, "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
/>Florida reported after
raising their minimum wage a very minor increase in some prices. Since a
relatively small percent of the employed receive minimum wage, one might
not expect a dramatic increase in prices. (We can expect a “ripple
effect”
though, where employers will raise wages to be more competitive.) One
year
ago in Idaho, according to the Department of Commerce and Labor, 32,000
Idahoans received a wage between $5.15 and $6.15 per hour. While Idaho
State Government employee pay is entirely too low, almost none of them
receive pay as low as $5.15 per hour. I don’t consider it an undisputed
fact that there will be significant inflation, but we can certainly study
the issue in the states that have raised the minimum wage.
Workers who receive minimum wage live from paycheck to paycheck. (If
they can make it stretch.) They have no discretionary money. What are
they to do when their taxes go up? Just more water in the gravy, I guess.
At the minimum wage, it takes more than one full day to earn the money to
buy fifteen gallons of gasoline.
While I continue to study the issue, I am convinced that some of the
negative consequences of raising the minimum wage are over-stated. I am
also steadfast in my belief that it is unacceptable to value people and
families so little that we allow such a low level of compensation for
their
efforts and to address their needs.
Shirley
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