[Vision2020] Re: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 18, Issue 71

Thu Nov 10 15:38:11 PST 2005

This article just appeared today:  Question, if intelligent design, as 
proponents argue, is not creationism in disguise (and doesn't assume God), 
then how can rejecting intelligent design board members be a rejection of 
God????  Just amusing to watch the logical gymnastics.

Robertson: Pa. Voters Rejected God
Nov. 9, 2005

----------
(CBS/AP) The Reverend Pat Robertson says Pennsylvanians who voted members 
of the Dover Area school board out of office for supporting "intelligent 
design" rejected God as well.

Eight school board members who wanted high school biology students to be 
told that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution lost their 
re-election bids Tuesday.

On Thursday's broadcast of "The 700 Club," Robertson told Dover residents, 
"If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God." The founder of 
the Christian Broadcasting Network explained, "You just voted God out of 
your city."

Plaintiffs in a federal lawsuit charged that intelligent design is biblical 
creationism in disguise. A federal judge must now decide if the ousted 
school board's policy is constitutional.

Dover is about 20 miles south of Harrisburg, the state capital.

A similar controversy has erupted in Kansas, where the state Board of 
Education on Tuesday approved science standards for public schools that 
cast doubt on the theory of evolution. The 6-4 vote was a victory for 
intelligent design advocates who helped draft the standards.

At 01:39 PM 11/8/2005, you wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. kirk email (Michael)
>    2. Re: kirk email (Chasuk)
>    3. pork (lfalen)
>    4. kirk email (Michael)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:52:22 -0800
>From: "Michael" <metzler at moscow.com>
>Subject: [Vision2020] kirk email
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Cc: Douglas <dougwils at christkirk.com>
>Message-ID: <200511082052.jA8KqRXC050617 at mail-gw.fsr.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Dale Wrote (see his link):
>
>The U.S. Supreme Court held in McDaniel v. Paty (1978) that ministers may
>serve in state legislatures and hold public office. If a minister may serve
>in a public office, certainly he may testify as an individual before a
>public office. Just because you are a pastor doesn't mean that you lose your
>rights to speak. But that doesn't keep zealots from fighting for that
>result.
>
>
>
>Me:
>
>I just called Wilson to confirm what I thought his position on this is.
>Generally speaking (i.e. with qualifications regarding abnormal times, etc)
>Wilson is very sympathetic with law not permitting an active minister to
>also hold public office.  And I know I don't think a minister should be
>permitted to hold public office while they are actively serving as a
>minister (although Dale's statement of the ruling is ambiguous here).
>Wilson can testify as an individual, and I'd think he could even testify as
>a prophet from God,  but I don't think that MCDaniel v. Paty is a good
>justification for it, although it certainly seems to legally justify it.
>Separation of Church and State is a wonderful fruit of Christianity.
>
>
>
>Now we can all be friends and start talking about sex again. :-)
>
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>Michael Metzler
>
>
>
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>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:55:36 -0800
>From: Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] kirk email
>To: Michael <metzler at moscow.com>
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Message-ID:
>         <ef6f41de0511081255q655c7a7cifc91f47c40d63cea at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
>
>On 11/8/05, Michael <metzler at moscow.com> wrote:
>
> > Chas Wrote:
>
> > I'm curious: what would constitute sufficient evidence to haul it into the
> > public square?
>
> > Me:
>
> > Ok, perhaps you are right.  This is why I followed up my comment with the
> > fact that "at the very least
more judiciously."  Perhaps the implicit
> > conclusion behind the presentation of the evidence needed more moderation,
> > or perhaps it could have been presented as a fact without any assumed
> > conclusion.  What you think?
>
>I don't know, truthfully. I believe that Vision2020 can reasonably be
>likened to a "court," at least in the sense that it is a jury of our
>peers.  My analogy now makes me wonder: who is the judge?   Scott
>Peterson was convicted largely on circumstantial evidence, so we do
>have precedent.  In a civil trial, circumstantial evidence is used to
>establish liability.  I know, Vision2020 isn't always civil (pun
>intended), but doesn't this at least establish Nate's liability, if
>not Doug's culpability?
>
>If too much circumlocution and circuitous analogies gives you a
>headache, I apologize.  My head is certainly hurting.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue,  8 Nov 2005 13:18:57 -0800
>From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>Subject: [Vision2020] pork
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Message-ID: <2abfdf1dd70d653c241f572261d47fd1 at turbonet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>The following is from an article by Stephen Spruiell in the November 7, 
>2005 issue of National Review. Any typo's are mine.
>
>Rep. Don Young stuffed two bridges in to the highway bill recently passed 
>into law. Combined the bridges will cost taxpayers $454 million just 
>slightly less than the amount Alaska will give away in PFD checks this 
>year. Permanent Fund Dividend (PFD) checks are paid to Alaskans out of 
>state'd royalties on oil and gas. This year the state will distribute 
>roughly $510 million to Alaska's 600,000 residents or about $845 apiece. 
>Alaska has no stae personal income tax or sale tax.
>
>On top of this payment they are getting two unneeded bridges. one is 
>designed to connect the town of Ketchikan  (population 8,000) to its 
>airport on nearby Gravina  Island (pop. 50), supplanting a ferry service 
>that currently makes the trip in about seven minutes for a fare of $5 t0 
>$6. The other is the infamous bridge to nowhere. It is a bridge between 
>Anchorage and a small rural area called Point MacKenzie ( pop. 11). 
>Citizens Against Government Waste ranks Alaska firs in per capita pork 
>spending.
>
>Here are just a few of the goodies Young and Stevens have steered toward 
>alaska in recent years: $1.8 million for berry research; $1.8 million for 
>sea-otter recovery; $10 million for a pyschiatric treatment facility; $48 
>millions subsidies for the timber industry; and $500,000 to paint a giant 
>salmon on an Alaska Airlines jetliner.
>
>A study by Taxpayes for Common Sence revealed that the $285.5 billion 
>highway bill contained 119 special projects for Alaska, totaling almost $1 
>million. Of the $24 billion worth of pork in the bill Alaska got 4%. Don 
>Young compared it to hunting. " i'm always looking for a bigger Head" He 
>said about Ted Stevens " i'd lkie to be a little oinker, myself. If he's 
>cheif porker i'm upset."
>
>My comment: I thought Robert Byrd was bad. These guys make him look like a 
>piker. Maybe Chris would loke to comment on Alaskan politics
>
>Roger
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:38:52 -0800
>From: "Michael" <metzler at moscow.com>
>Subject: [Vision2020] kirk email
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Message-ID: <200511082139.jA8LcvNZ089917 at mail-gw.fsr.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>J Wrote:
>
>First, I am curious - are you comparing CC to being like an organization
>such as the Mafia?  So that makes Doug the Godfather?  Was the Godfather
>evil or political?  Interesting.
>
>
>
>
>
>Me:
>
>No, the Mafia would be local politics, and Wilson would be yelling "Just as
>soon as I think I'm out they bring me back in!"  He would then have his
>heart attack and fall to the kitchen floor. I actually think there are many
>analogies to the two plots.  Once, Wilson was a ring leader in the Mafia,
>but he's trying to repent; give him some space so that he can get his life
>back in order and go on.
>
>
>
>
>
>J Wrote:
>
>Secondly, with CC being the ONLY church in Moscow spouting out political
>do's and don'ts, why do you feel it has to be an either/or situation for
>CC/Doug?
>
>
>
>
>
>Me:
>
>This was one of my questions: Or is this a false alternative?  Why do you
>feel that it isn't an either/or?
>
>
>
>
>
>J Wrote:
>
>Are you suggesting that we would see an even more increased effort to have
>things run their way?  Laws changed to fit their needs?  People run out of
>town or loose their jobs that they don't like?  The overtaking of buildings
>downtown be even more obvious and out in the open?
>
>
>
>
>
>Me:
>
>Oh, man.  Just think of what we could do.  If we put all our connections,
>congregation, church businesses, money (well), and my son with his squirt
>gun into an aggressive and sustained political battle, we'd take over the
>place. You'd see Joe and I debating philosophy on the front page of the
>Daily News every day! Philosophers should be Kings! Said Plato; philosophers
>will rule the land. Chas, Ted, Joe, and Michael would split the kingdom into
>four secions. Or, I guess, the FBI would do us in before it got too out of
>hand.
>
>
>
>J Wrote:
>
>What is more evil - people supporting their community for the betterment and
>benefit of the community as a whole OR people claiming they are the only
>ones with the truth and the rest of us better start getting in line and
>stepping in rhythm?
>
>
>
>
>
>Me:
>
>Oh no, you have it wrong.  I appreciate and accept your point of view that
>my moral views are disgusting and that my pastor is a lying racist. No
>problem here in Diversityville as far as I'm concerned.
>
>
>
>I better stop before I start sounding sarcastic.  Now, what about Joe's
>epistemic concerns about a Christian foundation for morality?......
>
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>Michael Metzler
>
>
>
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>End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 18, Issue 71
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