[Vision2020] Joan and Sunil
Phil Nisbet
pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
Wed Nov 2 19:56:34 PST 2005
Sunil
Its not what is proported, its what Amnesty International and Human Rights
Watch have been trying to tell people is going on for years now. We just
have not been listening.
If you step back in time to the 1930's, we were involved in a lot of the
same sorts of activities that your condemning. Look at the original fight
against Sandino under FDR for just ine example. Should the vile policies
that we did carry out in the 1920-1938 period have suggested that we not
take on Nazi Germany?
As for South Africa Being worse than current Iran, a woman is defined under
Iranian law currently as being worth half a man. If apartheid was wrong on
racial grounds, why is it not vile on Sexual grounds?
I am not suggesting anything here to call anybodies personal politics into
question, Sunil. My concern is that we have to start looking at what is
required to bring an end to gender apartheid in Iran and to stop the sexual
murder of gays and women. Any and all political parties have corrupt
elements and power itself tends to corrupt those at the top of any and all
administration. The US has made mistakes and will no doubt make mistakes
into the future. But that does not free us from the need to find a response
to try to save people from the threat of death by repressive regimes.
If you read what I posted about the neighbors of the hanged 16 year old you
will realize that its not Islam or the Iranian people that are behind these
horrible acts. There are brutal and evil men who are behind the reign of
terror there. People at least need to put them on their radar screen and
consider what they do in relationship to them and their regime.
Phil Nisbet
>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Joan and Sunil
>Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:36:30 -0800
>
>
>
>Phil,
>
>While I do think it would be a good thing to understand all people, I don't
>think that was the gist of my post. I certainly did not intend to give
>that message. Primarily I was objecting to our foreign policy and those
>who would excuse reprehensible policies from the top. I think the policies
>for the mistreatment of detainees/prisoners comes from the top of the
>government, and a few grunts at the bottom have been made scapegoats. I
>utterly reject Pat's description of the torture at Abu Ghraib and
>elsewhere . And I can't condemn any one religion or say all its adherents
>are the same and think the same way.
>
>If acts such as you describe are occurring in Iran, then I find them vile.
>If true, it's another example of why I don't want religious extremists in
>charge of governments. But I disagree with your comparison
>of Iran and South Africa. I think what happened in South Africa was far
>worse. And I think if Iran didn't sit on oil, we wouldn't look twice at
>what may be happening there. I don't think we'd give a rat's ass.
>
>I do think this Administration is still willing to go to war with Syria and
>Iran, and if they have to play a 'human rights card' to get support they're
>hypocritical enough to do it if they think it will work. Given our support
>for the Shah, given our subsequent support of Hussein when he was at war
>with Iran, given our policies in Central America, I won't swallow that line
>from this government.
>
>Sunil
>
>
>
>
>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Joan and Sunil
>Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 16:40:27 -0800
> >Neither one of you address the underlaying basics.
> >
> >For Joan, how is it that we are supposed to get the warm and fuzzies
> >about a regime that has murdered by acts of judicial actions 4000
> >people in the last 26 years solely for the reason that they were
> >gay?
> >
> >Sunil, its wonderful to be understanding of all other peoples, but
> >what if the society in question feels perfectly free to stone to
> >death a 13 year old girl because she had a baby out of wedlock that
> >was the result of a rape by her older brother?
> >
> >Its not Islam that is at issue, its the very strong
>extremist brand
> >of that religion that is. Iran is currently ruled by followers of a
> >faith that allows judicial murder of children for 'sex' crime. They
> >are not just chatting about stoning people to death, they are flat
> >out stoning them. They are cutting off the hands of kids for
> >stealing. They are hanging kids for drinking booze. At the same
> >time they are encouraging people to volunteer to become suicide
> >bombers and pushing to get a nuclear weapon.
> >
> >So, even if these guys were sitting on top of nothing but silica
> >sand, they would and should be a concern for the world and us in
> >particular, since we are identified by them as 'the Great Satan'.
> >
> >Oil is the means they themselves are using to keep people backed
> >off, allowing them to
>run their nasty regime with threats and
> >inducements of cheaper crude. If they owned no oil, do you think
> >that the nations of the world would not respond to the kinds of
> >judicial murder they are carrying out? For one heck of a lot less
> >than Iran is doing, the people's of the world combined to bring down
> >the government of South Africa.
> >
> >Where is the similar outrage for the Iranian Regime?
> >
> >Phil Nisbet
> >
> >>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
> >>To: pkraut at moscow.com
> >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What just society does something like
> >>this?
> >>Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:27:29 -0800
> >>
> >>Pat
> >>
> >>http://www.wfafi.org/
> >>
> >>A group which is covering some
>of the violence and murder of women
> >>by the Iran regime.
> >>
> >>http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=137
> >>
> >>http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=634
> >>
> >>All I can say or think is what sort of insanity is it that allows
> >>the killing of children who have been abused by the system, beaten,
> >>raped and then stoned to death or hanged.
> >>
> >>I only hope that they will make the case of Zhila Izadyar, the poor
> >>little 13 year old girl, one that will save her life.
> >>
> >>Phil Nisbet
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >>>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What just society does something like
>
> >>>this?
> >>>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:25:32 -0800
> >>>
> >>>They wouldn't have any compassion as we know it for anyone else.
> >>>Especially
> >>>the Jews, but truly anyone. On Good morning America this AM they
> >>>had the
> >>>woman who has stood up to her city council in Pakistan who gang
> >>>raped her.
> >>>She is today's Rosa Parks and what she is doing will rock that
> >>>world. I
> >>>believe that she knew, KNEW that the rest of the world would stand
> >>>behind
> >>>her and if she could only get the press to tell her story she
> >>>could change
> >>>the system. She is incredibly brave. I also think this is some of
> >>>the
> >>>fallout from our taking on Saddam. It will give others the
>courage
> >>>to face
> >>>their unfair systems and make very positive changes. I know people
> >>>involved
> >>>in Iran in a variety of ways and I think you can expect at some
> >>>time some
> >>>inside changes in that country also. While I believe the press is
> >>>very
> >>>selective in their stories this woman's story is one that they
> >>>have helped
> >>>to promote.
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
> >>>To: <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >>>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>>Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:05 PM
> >>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What just society does something like
>
> >>>this?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Pat
> >>>
> >>>I looked all over the net to find what I could on the pictures.
> >>>It seems
> >>>that its not what the intial reports claimed the pictures of the
> >>>kid being
> >>>punished claimed.
> >>>
> >>>What I did find in relationship to punishment in Iran made the
> >>>pictures of
> >>>the little boy look pretty tame, though.
> >>>
> >>>Currently under death sentence by stoning is a 13 year old girl
> >>>who two
> >>>years ago was raped by her 15 year old brother. He got off scot
> >>>free, but
> >>>she is to be stoned to death in a pit. 6 children under the age
> >>>of 16 have
> >>>been
>executed in Iran this year.
> >>>
> >>>Being busted for drinking carries a 100 lash fine, beating with a
> >>>wire
> >>>cable. You can be busted three times for the offense and then you
> >>>are
> >>>hanged. One 19 year old suffered that fate, hanging, in July.
> >>>
> >>>They have hanged 4000 gays since 1979 in Iran according to Iran
> >>>Human Rights
> >>>Watch. In the case of Lesbians, just sleeping naked under the
> >>>covers with
> >>>one of the same sex is enough to get you 100 lashes with a wire
> >>>cable.
> >>>
> >>>Islamic lawyers who write on the internet seem to think that we
> >>>'oversensitive westerners' just do not understand that this is not
>
> >>>bad.
> >>>Here's what one of them says on the subject of amputation of
> >>>limbs;
> >>>
> >>>"Mutilating means "to deprive a person of an organ of the body"71
> >>>and like
> >>>'lashing', it too has some negative connotations and I would
> >>>prefer the
> >>>alternative 'amputating'. In Islamic law, its application is only
> >>>confined
> >>>to the hudood punishments for armed robbery72 and theft73, except
> >>>of course
> >>>that it might be applicable to the retributory punishments of
> >>>qisas. For all
> >>>practical purposes, the punishment of 'cutting off' the hand is
> >>>generally
> >>>invoked for the offence of theft and so I will mention it in some
>
> >>>detail."
> >>>
> >>>These people have some serious problems. And they also want the
> >>>bomb. If
> >>>they are willing to mutilate their own kids, what makes us think
> >>>that they
> >>>would have compassion for the lives of others?
> >>>
> >>>Phil Nisbet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >>> >To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What just society does something like
> >>>this?
> >>> >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 22:00:27 -0800
> >>> >
> >>> >Phil: Some of the people seem to be questioning the truth of the
> >>>photos. I
> >>> >think they
>are very compelling but with the questions on the
> >>>site I also
> >>> >wonder if they are truth. Perhaps someone knows someone who can
> >>>do Farsi
> >>> >will look at the original site. But, the truth is that the
> >>>middle eastern
> >>> >countries really do have a code that would follow this type of
> >>>punishment.
> >>> >It is why we had to put hands back on some people that had lost
> >>>them under
> >>> >Saddam. But, there are many more out there that will not see the
> >>>inside of
> >>> >an American hospital. It has been the way of this area for a
> >>>long time. On
> >>> >some days I am sure we will not change it and on others I know
> >>>we are
> >>> >giving
> >>> >them a
>great opportunity to do just that.
> >>> >I still wonder if they are not doctored in some way.
> >>> >PK
> >>> >
> >>> >----- Original Message -----
> >>> >From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
> >>> >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>> >Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:47 AM
> >>> >Subject: [Vision2020] What just society does something like
> >>>this?
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >I just saw some very grim pictures that were evidently taken in
> >>>Iran or
> >>> >Justice done to a small child for stealing a loaf of bread.
> >>> >
> >>> >http://bareknucklepolitics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=126#126
> >>> >
> >>> >The pictures have a photographer listed
>and link back to a
> >>>Persian language
> >>> >news net site.
> >>> >
> >>> >Any comments from here on this?
> >>> >
> >>> >Phil Nisbet
> >>> >
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