[Vision2020] "No free meal, whatever...?

Tue May 17 17:09:51 PDT 2005

Carl,

Which do you think is more probable?

W.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl Westberg" <carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "No free meal, whatever...?

> Ted closes with noting that in a few billion years, the sun will go all 
> supernova on us, turning the earth into a black, cold, lifeless orb, 
> ruining an otherwise nice day.  That's the bad news.  The good news is, 
> given a few billion years, the Mariners might yet win the World Series. 
> Carl Westberg Jr.
>
>>From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
>>Reply-To: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
>>To: Debbie Gray <dgray at uidaho.edu>
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "No free meal, whatever...?
>>Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:09:16 -0700
>>
>>Debbie et. al.
>>
>>I did not intend to label you as a "capitalist."  I am sorry you took
>>it that way.  After all, you are employed in the public sector, I have
>>gathered, a part of our economy that the capitalist free market
>>libertarians want to dismantle, or at least downsize dramatically.
>>They have had some success at the U of I, as I'm sure you are aware
>>of.  Your employment in the public sector, some might argue, makes you
>>a part of the "socialist" sector of the US economy.  Please, please
>>don't think I am labeling you a "socialist" either.
>>
>>I am well aware of the "big picture," "hidden costs," etc. in resource
>>extraction, even something as minimal as picking a few mushrooms.
>>
>>The "big picture?"  Consider this:
>>
>>When viewing ecosystems, the Earth and our solar system as a total
>>system that stores and generates energy creating resources that human
>>beings extract or consume, human beings do not "pay" for, nor do they
>>create, all of this energy.  I do not see any way around the fact
>>that, for example, the stored energy in fossil fuels was not created
>>by human beings.  Most fossil fuel energy can be traced back to
>>nuclear fusion energy from our Sun, energy that impacted the Earth
>>before the human species even existed.
>>
>>I do not think that all resources and energy that human beings consume
>>can be defined totally in terms of human created economic systems.
>>This issue can be debated on and on.  But I think that at some point
>>in tracing the sources and costs of resources and energy we must jump
>>outside human created economic systems to realize that we are just
>>another species living inside the Earth's biosphere dependent on
>>"gifted" resources or energy not created by human beings.  This is not
>>to say that these sources of energy or resources are unlimited.   We
>>all know what is going to happen very soon with fossil fuels.  But in
>>fact the amount of energy that we in theory can gather from our Sun,
>>given the proper technology, is for practical purposes infinite,
>>unless the population of the human race grows to astonishing
>>proportions.
>>
>>Infinite, that is, till our Sun starts to expand on its journey to
>>becoming a Red Giant star, according to the best current science on
>>stellar evolution.  When that starts to happen, life on Earth will
>>become impossible, due to tremendously hot temperatures, though this
>>is probably billions of years away.  Eventually our Sun will become a
>>black dwarf.  The primary energy source in our solar system will be
>>gone.
>>
>>Game over.
>>
>>http://www.columbia.edu/~ah297/unesa/sun/sun-chapter5.html
>>
>>Thanks for your input!
>>
>>Ted Moffett
>>
>>
>>On 5/17/05, Debbie Gray <dgray at uidaho.edu> wrote:
>> > Actually, as someone with a master's in environmental science, I
>> > would say that the environmental movement has done a bang up job
>> > in educating people on the 'costs' of shared resources in the
>> > 'commons.' Looking at the history of our country, you can see
>> > that people had the view of natural resources being not only
>> > free but unlimited. We now know that is not true. There are
>> > hidden costs to everything in life.
>> >
>> > Yes, you may think it was free to have a nice morel meal but...
>> > did you drive up there on a road? who made the road? why? was it
>> > on private land or federal land or state land? who pays to
>> > maintain that? or, conversely, who pays to keep it from being
>> > clearcut into nothing? At the same time, looking at the tragedy
>> > of the commons as an example, what if everybody went up to that
>> > lovely spot, ate a few mushrooms and used a few dried out sticks
>> > to make a nice campfire? Soon there would be no mushrooms left,
>> > no meadow left, no dry kindling, etc (see also Africa or other
>> > places people gather firewood for subsistence but soon have to
>> > walk miles and miles for wood, water, etc). You can keep going
>> > further, if you did drive at least part way there who is
>> > subsidizing our fuel? What were the costs to make your car,
>> > tires, pollution, etc  etc. How has acid rain been mitigated so
>> > that it doesn't destroy the forest ecosystem to allow mushrooms
>> > to grow? Often morels grow in newly burned land, was that land
>> > you were on recently logged or burned?
>> >
>> > You have to think big picture here...
>> >
>> > Debbie (geez, i've never been labeled as a capitalist before. my
>> > parents have referred to me as a f***ing communist before but...
>> > i think they got over that when they figured out i was not going
>> > to take over the EPA and close down their farm)
>> >
>> > On 17 May 2005 at 11:07, Ted Moffett wrote:
>> >
>> > > Debbie et. al.
>> > >
>> > > Debbie wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Remember, there is no free ride, free meal, whatever =)
>> > > >
>> > > > Debbie
>> > >
>> > > "no free meal, whatever...?"
>> > >
>> > > So who was billed for that huge serving of delicious wonderful
>> > > wild forest mushrooms I ate cooked over a small campfire
>> > fueled
>> > > by a few dried out tree branches?
>> > >
>> > > And all along I thought this meal was a gift from the Goddess
>> > of
>> > > Mother Earth.
>> > >
>> > > The Capitalists who want to redefine everything in Mother
>> > Nature
>> > > as a resource they can extract and profit from have been more
>> > > astonishingly successful in their propaganda efforts than I
>> > > thought!
>> > >
>> > > So to whom and where was the bill sent for my meal that I
>> > thought
>> > > was "free?"
>> > >
>> > > Ted Moffett
>> >
>> >
>>
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