[Vision2020] Just for you Tom

[Phil Nisbet]

Wayne

I seriously doubt that I need the education.

The original statement is actually older and within the writings in Tanahk, 
circa 550 BCE and is redacted for a particular circumstance by Hillel while 
dealing with the famous scoffer incident.

>From Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your 
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD."

However Hillel's version was study text for almost all of the various 
sectarians in Israel at the begining of the common era and I know of no 
scholar who would claim that Hillel's statement of the idea was not the one 
which both Jesus and Paul would have been familiar and used in their own 
statements of the principle.

There are several different cultural versions, some older and some younger, 
but all falling in the same time frame.  However the version used in the 
Xtian works would be from its sourcing in Leviticus and in Hillel, since I 
seriously doubt that the Zorastrian statement of the thesis would have been 
a common usage in Israel in 20-33 CE.

Now it might be fun to discuss the variation of Talmidic use of the negative 
case of the idea versus the positivistic use that is christian.  My personal 
feeling is that the negative case is gentler and leads to a far less 
combative understanding of how one should treat his neighbors.  I would love 
Nick's take on end results that the assumption that because you want it your 
neighbor must want the exact same thing can lead to in a statement of the 
Golden Rule.  Buddahist, Zorastrian and Jewish statements are all in the 
negative.  Islam and Christianity chose the positive expression of the idea.

Now I will grant you that if Carl wanted to give me Angelina Jolie, that 
could indeed be a pretty positve thing, but I am sure that it would spark 
major resentment in Carl.  But in the negative case, its hard to go wrong, 
since none of use really want to be hurt or destroyed or damaged beyond 
repair, so not doing that to another is obviously not something that should 
cause resentment.  And that does not even go into the crazied pathological 
SOBs who might like to be hurt beaten and destroyed and are perfectly 
willing to do unto others as well, that are a definate problem in a 
postivist statement of the Rule.

Are you following this so far Wayne?

Phil Nisbet


>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Just for you Tom
>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:51:15 -0700
>
>Perhaps Nick G. can educate Phil on the origin of the "Golden Rule".
>
>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>deco at moscow.com
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 9:44 PM
>Subject: [Vision2020] Just for you Tom
>
>
>>"If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for 
>>myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?"
>>
>>Hillel the Elder (Pirkei Avot 1:14)  Babylonian Talmud circa 5 B.C.E.
>>
>>The paraphrased version simply removes the initial statements and uses the 
>>later statement "And if not now, when?"  without it original context.  You 
>>Xtians have been doing that sort of thing for centuries.
>>
>>Another example?
>>
>>"What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole 
>>Law; the rest is mere commentary"   Hillel the Elder (Shab. 31a) 
>>Babylonian Talmud
>>
>>Your guy Jesus high graded that and turned it into your Golden Rule.
>>
>>Or Maybe you would like
>>
>>"Judge not thy neighbor till thou art in his place" Hillel the Elder (Avot 
>>ii. 4)
>>
>>Hillel was the founder of Rabbinic Judaism and wrote from 30 BCE until his 
>>death in 10 CE.
>>
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