[Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Fri Aug 19 14:25:31 PDT 2005
Sunil,
It is ironic how Native Americans were so violated by
their fellow human beings and still worship Him and
yet you are the one that holds a grudge against God
when he gave you everything.
Donovan J Arnold
--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
---------------------------------
Donovan,
I find your position here quite stunning. I think
Native Americans for instance might take a different
position from yours on the historical effects of a
prayerful nation. And for you to try to link prayer
to complex political and historical events is
breath-taking.
Sunil
---------------------------------
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
money
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
>Sunil,
>
>You wrote:
>
>"You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal
to
>answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer
has
>had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's
>exhibit A in my case against public prayer or
>invocations of God's will."
>
>I think Bush in the White House is evidence that we
>cut too much prayer out. Ever notice as prayer goes
>down so does the quality of Presidents.
>
>When we were a religious nation we had Lincoln,
>Washington, and Roosevelt. We balanced the budget and
>won our wars. Now without prayer we have Bush, Bush
>Jr. and Ronald Reagan. We have the largest deficit
in
>the world and we haven't won a real war since WWII.
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Donovan,
>
>You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal to
>answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer
has
>had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's
>exhibit A in my case against public prayer or
>invocations of God's will.
>
>Sunil
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
>vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
>money
>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
> >Sunil,
> >
> >
> >You wrote, "I think state-sponsored prayer IS state
> >religion."
> >
> >You are wrong. Prayer is not A religion. All or
most
> >religions PRAY or have some type or concept of
>PRAYER.
> >So the state is not forcing a religion on anyone by
> >allowing a moment for prayer. Nor is it promoting
one
> >religion over another. If do not want to pray, you
do
> >not have too, but do not prevent others. I would
also
> >like to point out that both the State and Federal
> >governments use public prayer before their meeting.
> >
> >Donovan J Arnold
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >I think we're communicating, but we don't agree. I
> >think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion.
When
> >the group you're describing as the minority has to
>sit
> >there while the group you define as the majority
says
> >their prayer prior to public business, then your
> >majority is jamming its religion down the
minority's
> >throat. What you want your minority to do is
succumb
> >to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent
on
> >forcing its religion on them.
> >
> >
> >I don't claim a constitutional right not to have to
> >see religious symbols or hear prayer; that's a
straw
> >man about to tip over. I do have a right not to
have
> >the state promote one religion over another. I'm
not
> >going to make other people have to listen to
> >Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in
> >exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist or
> >Muslim prayers too.
> >
> >Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in
> >influencing his decisions? You see the Divine in
his
> >actions?
> >
> >Sunil
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >From: Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> >To: Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
> >vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
> >money
> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
> > >Sunil,
> > >
> > >We are not communicating obviously. I do not
>support
> > >state religion. I just oppose the government
>telling
> > >me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I
> > >believe that persons have a constitutional right
>not
> > >to see or hear praying or religious symbols.
> > >
> > >It just irritates me that people are so
intolerant
> > >they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a
prayer
>or
> > >the courteous of being able to express
themselves.
> > >Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable
>request
> > >of the minority to give to the majority. People
can
> >be
> > >so disrespectful sometimes.
> > >
> > >Donovan J Arnold
> > >
> > >--- Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >
> > >Donovan,
> > >
> > >Others have already pointed out the Supreme Court
> > >decisions interpreting the Constitution. That
>works
> > >for me. I have lived in a country with a state
> > >religion, and I've always appreciated the
>difference
> > >between that approach and ours. I disagree with
>your
> > >views on state action and religion, and am
grateful
> > >the issue has been settled.
> > >
> > >Sunil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >
> > >From: Donovan Arnold
><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >To: Sunil Ramalingam
><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
> > >vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
public
> > >money
> > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)
> > > >Sunil,
> > > >
> > > >Can you please quote me in the Constitution
where
> >it
> > > >says you have a right to be protected from
being
> > > >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot
>find.
> >I
> > > >do see where it says the government cannot stop
>me
> > > >from practicing my religion, but I cannot find
> >where
> > > >it says people have to hide all religious
>writings,
> > > >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of anyone
> >that
> > > >may not wish to listen?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >If you are looking to save time at a public
>meeting
> > > >there are areas that you can cut out that will
>save
> > > >more time than the prayer. But again, where
does
>it
> > > >say that public meetings should run in the most
> > > >efficient manner as to not waste time or upset
> > >Sunil's
> > > >schedule?
> > > >
> > > >"It does not follow that you are being forced
to
> > > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public
> > > >meeting."
> > > >
> > > >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are
> > > >preventing us from praying you are preventing
us
> >from
> > > >practicing our religion is says we are suppose
to
> > > >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a
>religion
> > >or
> > > >establishing a religion.
> > > >
> > > >Donovan J Arnold
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam
><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >Donovan,
> > > >
> > > >I want you to be able to say all the prayers
you
> > >want,
> > > >whenever and wherever you want, as long as you
> >want,
> > > >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want
you
> >to
> > > >practice your religion, but not at the expense
of
> >my
> > > >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're at
>your
> > > >church, I'm more than willing to listen to you
>pray
> > > >out loud, because I have the simple choice of
not
> > > >going there at all.
> > > >
> > > >It does not follow that you are being forced to
> > > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public
> > > >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a
> >gulag,
> > > >or barred from private prayer or from attending
> >your
> > > >church. You're simply not going to be able to
>use
> >up
> > > >other people's time at a public meeting for
> >something
> > > >you can do silently at that meeting.
> > > >
> > > >Politicians want to pray at public meetings so
>they
> > > >can act pious for the cameras and the public.
>You
> > > >think W's praying is working out well for us?
> > > >
> > > >sunil
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >From: Donovan Arnold
> ><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > >To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>,
> > > >joanopyr at earthlink.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
>public
> > > >money
> > > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > >The Government representing a FAITH or
Religion
> >is
> > > > >against the Constitution Mr. Hansen. Allowing
a
> > > >moment
> > > > >to pray does not.
> > > > >
> > > > >Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the
> >people
> > > >get
> > > > >only the same amount of time as the other 5%.
>The
> > > > >government represents people, not Gods, so it
> > >should
> > > > >be the people, not Gods that get equal time.
> > > > >
> > > > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force
>people
> >to
> > > > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do not
> >force
> > > > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it is
> > > > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because
you
> >are
> > > > >preventing them from practicing their faith
and
> > > > >forcing them to practice another.
> > > > >
> > > > >What you are saying is that because my moment
>of
> > > > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot
> >practice
> > > >it.
> > > > >This is the state stopping me from my free
> >exercise
> > > >of
> > > > >religion.
> > > > >
> > > > >Donovan J Arnold
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would be more than willing to support
>prayer
> > >at
> > > > > > all city council sessions,
> > > > > > provided that each (and EVERY) faith
> >represented
> > > > > > within Moscow is provided
> > > > > > "equal time".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lacking this possibility, the session
>further
> > > >lacks
> > > > > > equality. And I am
> > > > > > certain that you wouldn't want that, now
>would
> > > >you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Enough said.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "If not us, who?
> > > > > > If not now, when?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Unknown
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Donovan Arnold
> > > > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05 at yahoo.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM
> > > > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;
> > > > > > vision2020 at momoscowom
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
> > >public
> > > > > > money
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mr. Hansen,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are only offering circular arguments.
A
> > > >speaker
> > > > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at a
> >meeting
> > > > > > too.
> > > > > > You silly man. So why not let those that
> >believe
> > > >in
> > > > > > praying before conducting important
business
> > >pray
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > those that wish not to think about
something
> > >else.
> > > > > > Why
> > > > > > should those that wish to pray be denied.
If
> >you
> > > > > > allow
> > > > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If
you
> > > > > > disallow
> > > > > > prayer only those that wish not to pray
get
> >what
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Donovan J Arnold
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>____________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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> > >
> >
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