[Vision2020] The Nasty Nine (was: Taxes and the Intoleristas)
Viva La Nasty Nine
thansen at moscow.com
Mon Oct 11 08:36:12 PDT 2004
Yeah.
Maybe we can modify the words to "Casey at the Bat".
Instead of:
"It looked extremely rocky for the Mudville nine that day. . . ."
We can have:
"The listserve looked threatening for the Nasty Nine that day. . . . "
Any ideas?
Tom "batting third and playing janitor" Hansen
> Saundra asks: " BTW, I'm also still wondering exactly *who* the Nasty Nine
> are...". I'm not sure myself, but that's just enough to field a baseball
> team. Great name for one, too. Who wants to play and what position?
>
>
>
> Carl Westberg Jr.
>
> >From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at adelphia.net>
> >To: <DonaldH675 at aol.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Taxes and the Intoleristas
> >Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:36:23 -0700
> >
> >Visionaries,
> >
> >As usual, I think Rose did an excellent job of elucidating *why* we -- she
> >& I
> >*and* the rest of us who are concerned about a fair and equitable local
> >property
> >tax burden -- are interested in property taxes in Latah County.
> >
> >Sadly, even though I think Rose did an excellent job, Dale Courtney
> >(http://right-mind.us/) seems . . . predisposed to miss the points, which
> >are
> >fairness, equity, playing by the rules, and respecting the law, ***not***
> >using
> >religion or theology or dogma to get away with *not* playing by the rules.
> >
> >(Now, I don't know Mr. Courtney well -- I've not met him in person -- but
> >he
> >always seemed to be a bright guy to me. I miss his participation in this
> >forum
> >-- I learned from him. While I took exception to his attacks of our local
> >public schools -- and lots of other stuff as well -- I thought he was great
> >at
> >identifying areas where there was real room for improvement, and I think he
> >did
> >a good job of presenting articulate arguments of other views.
> >
> >I'm quite sorry he and others in Wilson World have chosen to blog/monologue
> >rather than actually *participate* in discussions. Clearly, he and the
> >clique
> >with which he affiliates still read V2020 as evidenced by the bandwidth
> >used
> >blogging about V2020 discussions.
> >
> >IMHO, that's kind of a strange approach to take for a group which professes
> >to
> >want to be a *part* of our community. Quite often, actions speak louder
> >than
> >words, and this seems to me to be such a case.)
> >
> >That said, Mr. Courtney blogged:
> >"Churches have not been taxed because of the admission that churches are an
> >institution that is not under the authority of the State."
> >
> >SHAME ON Mr. Courtney . . . shame, shame, shame on him! That is a patently
> >false statement, and I've no doubt Mr. Courtney knows it. Why he'd stoop
> >to
> >such dishonest tactics to try to make his case is beyond me . . . maybe
> >it's
> >another example of the revisionist history he & his ilk are so fond of. I
> >mean,
> >I know he *wishes* that's why churches are tax exempt, but it's just not
> >true .
> >. . not true at all. Indeed, for a church to have tax exempt status, the
> >church
> >*must* adhere to rules specified by government, and there are legal
> >sanctions
> >for claiming tax exempt status and not following the rules. Does that
> >sound
> >like churches aren't under the authority of the State?
> >
> >Mr. Courtney seems to spend a lot of bandwidth trying (unsuccessfully, I
> >hope)
> >to convince his readers that Rose's & my (and other Intoleristas') interest
> >in
> >fair and equitable property tax in Latah County is a sham . . . that what
> >we
> >really want is "the entire removal of tax-exempt status for the church of
> >America."
> >
> >For the record, nothing could be further from the truth, and I resent Mr.
> >Courtney's attempt to, once again, play the Religion Card. Stick to the
> >issues,
> >man . . . don't try to cloud a clear local issue with your own paranoia!
> >
> >Rose & I challenged the property tax exemptions on three parcels: one
> >parcel is
> >owned by a church (Christ Church) and two are owned by a school (NSA),
> >which is
> >a self-professed "self-governing sister institution" of Christ Church.
> >Now,
> >I'll keep my fingers in check <g> to prevent digressing into an analysis of
> >what
> >that really means when 70+% of the Trustees and 100% of the Executive
> >Council
> >are made up of Christ Church's pastor and hierarchy ;-)
> >
> >If we'd have had similar information, we would have taken the exact same
> >actions
> >if the church had been the Church of Auntie Establishment or her brother
> >institution the Church of Golf, and if the school had been Intolerista
> >Academy.
> >The exact same actions!
> >
> >We've said before and I'll say it again: we have no reason to believe that
> >most
> >or all of the other non-profit organizations (including churches) in Latah
> >County aren't following the law, and we don't have any objection to
> >property tax
> >exemptions in accordance with existing (secular or not) law. We have no
> >desire
> >to eliminate property tax exemptions for churches or any other legitimate
> >group
> >that receives this government benefit in accordance with the rules. And,
> >that
> >would be the *legal* interpretation of the rules, not what *Mr. Courtney*
> >thinks
> >they ought to mean or what he and his buddies would like them to mean.
> >
> >Since Mr. Courtney has chosen not to participate here, I'm hoping one of
> >you
> >will be able to answer a question for me: what is "the church of
> >America"???
> >Silly me, I thought there were *lots* of churches in America, and that the
> >First
> >Amendment of our Constitution guarantees that there will *never* be *one*
> >official church. And, since Mr. Courtney made reference to the First
> >Amendment,
> >we know he's familiar with it, so what in the world is he talking about
> >with
> >respect to "the church of America"? Somehow, I seriously doubt he's
> >concerned
> >about non-Christian religions, or even about mainstream Christian religions
> >since only *his* flavor of Christianity is "right."
> >
> >Heck, just look at our local phone book -- we've got a great variety of
> >churches
> >right here in our community. Which one(s) is/are Mr. Courtney worried
> >about
> >losing tax-exempt status???
> >
> >I guess I'd suggest that he's concerned about his own church, and perhaps
> >that's
> >because he knows a heck of a lot more about the inner workings of it than
> >the
> >rest of us do. Remember, it's Wilson World that wants to pass judgment and
> >force the teeth of a desired theonomic reconstructionistic law on the rest
> >of us
> >-- Christians and non-Christians alike -- who don't share their particular
> >flavor of religion.
> >
> >And it's that, I contend, is what's "truly dangerous to our local society."
> >
> >I'm going to have to go back and change what I said at the beginning of
> >this
> >post about missing Dale Courtney's participation here on V2020 . . . I hate
> >it
> >when that happens :-) I've now gone back and read some of his archives,
> >and
> >given the very lamentable level of vitriolic diatribe to which he's
> >descended,
> >I'm glad to not have to read so much hatred & bitterness here. If that's
> >what
> >his flavor of Christianity has gotten him, I strongly suggest that he
> >consider
> >switching churches to a loving Christian Church! This area certainly has
> >many
> >for him to choose from.
> >
> >BTW, I'm also still wondering exactly *who* the Nasty Nine are -- do any of
> >you
> >know? I've tried to come up with my own list about to whom they are
> >referring,
> >but I always come up short. Any ideas???
> >
> >PS For those who don't know what an Intolerista is, please see the
> >following
> >link:
> >http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/images/intolerista.pdf
> >
> >
> >Apparently One of the Nasty Nine and Proud Intolerista,
> >Saundra Lund
> >Moscow, ID
> >
> >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> >nothing.
> >-Edmund Burke
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> >On
> >Behalf Of DonaldH675 at aol.com
> >Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 2:32 PM
> >To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: [Vision2020] Taxes and the Intoleristas
> >
> >Visionaries:
> >
> >One of the funny things about honest citizens, and I include my Intolerista
> >colleagues in that group, is that we do expect people who receive
> >government
> >services to help pay for the associated costs in so far as they are able.
> >I
> >wouldn't characterize this expectation as "salivating" but, rather, as an
> >awareness that there is no free lunch. To make our community a better place
> >for
> >all residents we share a moral and legal obligation to pay taxes, including
> >property taxes. I like knowing that by paying my fair share the police,
> >fire,
> >and sheriff departments protect us and our property. I am glad that the
> >roads
> >and streets are plowed and maintained, that children in need are fed, and
> >the
> >poor can see a health care provider (at least in a few medical clinics in
> >Moscow). I like knowing that when people who live in town turn on their
> >kitchen
> >faucets clean water will come out.
> >
> >I am familiar with "World Magazine" and actually spoke with Mark Bergin
> >last
> >summer regarding the tax issue. Mr. Bergin persisted in believing that
> >there is
> >"a desire for among many residents to see his [Doug Wilson's] church
> >brought
> >low"....an unsubstantiated sentiment apparently primed and stoked by Doug
> >himself. It is, after all, much nicer for Doug to paint himself (and his
> >defenders) as Christian martyrs rather than Calvinistic deadbeats. And
> >while
> >that "courageous role" might play well to those folks who rely on Doug to
> >describe local issues, it is not accurate reporting.
> >
> >Saundra and I have repeatedly, both in public and privately, maintained
> >that we
> >are not arguing over Christ Church members understanding of dogma or
> >theological
> >constructions. We are interested and will remain interested and committed
> >to
> >hold Doug Wilson, and the Elders (in so far as they have the capability to
> >act
> >as individuals) accountable in observing applicable state and federal laws.
> > The
> >same laws that the rest of us, including Intoleristas, obey.
> >
> >According to Dale's posting: "Rev. Wilson says he is battling for a
> >principle:
> >"if you start paying tax, you acknowledge state sovereignty, " he said.
> >"You're
> >saying they have authority over your church." Well, no. Actually, in my
> >opinion it means that you follow the directions Jesus gave:
> >
> >"Teacher, we know that you are true, and teach the way of God truthfully,
> >and
> >care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men. Tell us, then,
> >what
> >you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" But Jesus, aware
> >of
> >their malice, said, "Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the
> >money
> >for the tax. And they brought him a coin. And Jesus said to them, "Whose
> >likeness and inscription is this? They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to
> >them.
> >"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the
> >things
> >that are God's." Matthew 22: 16 -21.
> >
> >I understand this text to mean, at least in part, don't try to hide
> >personal
> >profit under the cloak of religious entitlement to avoid taxation, it
> >brings
> >disgrace to the church and the justly earned title of hypocrite to the
> >those
> >using the tactic.
> >
> >It does make me wonder what other taxes Doug Wilson et al. might be
> >avoiding. It
> >is to be hoped that wiser minds than my own are mulling over that very
> >issue.
> >
> >Rose Huskey
> >
> >"One cannot level one's moral lance at every evil in the universe. There
> >are
> >just too many of them. But you can do something, and the difference between
> >doing something and doing nothing is everything." Daniel Berrigan
> >
> >
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