[Vision2020] Is this Fair??? Other prison abuse issues
amy smoucha
asmoucha@hotmail.com
Tue, 11 May 2004 13:38:05 -0500
In the NY Times this week, there was another article about the prison abuses
that talked about the people being detained and interrogated by the CIA and
CIA "independent contractors." One of the dead prisoners was a CIA
subject.
Throughout this whole crises, I've been concerned that we place ourselves as
police of the universe, but don't follow the laws ourselves. Plus we
operate underthat do-as-I say . . . paradox that discredits us among other
nations.. Now I worry that we're not just the police of the universe, we're
the thugs of the universe. Isn't it most disturbing that the military and
CIA contract work out? To whom are they accountable? Yea I watch those
movies too, but look at the real world consequences.
Disgusted,
Amy
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>
Reply-To: <thansen@moscow.com>
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Is this Fair???
Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:06:57 -0700
HUH???
WHAT???
Hello. Hello. Earth to Donovan Arnold. Come in Mr. Arnold.
My guess (that is based on considerably more than whatever Mr. Arnold is
basing his comments on) is that this prison was being staffed by troops that
were inexperienced and insufficiently trained and was being supervised by a
corrupt chain of command.
To blame everything on the lower enlisted end of the spectrum is ignorant at
best. Let the military conduct their preliminary investigaitons and proceed
with their courts-martial. I am certain that those soldiers revealed in the
photographs will be harshly dealt with. I just hope that the ripples of
this judicial tidal wave reach as far as field grade and general grade
officers.
Two non-commissioned officers (who were assigned to this prisoner camp and
not under charges) were interviewed by Matt Lauer on The Today Show
yesterday morning. These NCOs stated that the general feeling among the
cadre was "the ends justifies the means".
Yes. The lower enlisted were seriously wrong in believing in, and applying,
that concept when interrogating Iraqi prisoners. But, more seriously, the
chain of command was wrong in letting it prevail.
And one last item, Mr. Arnold. During my 20 years of service, I do not
recall seeing one boy or girl. What I saw were men and women in uniform
serving their country.
Just some thoughts from an old soldier.
Take care,
Tom Hansen
SFC, U.S. Army (Retired)
"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil
and steady dedication of a lifetime." --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:27 PM
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Is this Fair???
>
>
> I was thinking about what would be the fair and decent thing to
> do with the
> soldiers that tortured, humiliated, and sodomized those in the
> Iraqi Prison.
>
> What I would do is leave all those who knew about it and did nothing and
> those that participated in the illegal behavior right there in
> Iraq. I would
> let the newly formed Iraqi government put them on trial along
> with all the
> others that will be tried for crimes against humanity. Then, if and when
> they have been tried and served their sentences in Iraqi, they should be
> brought back to the US and tried in a Court Martial.
>
> It seems only fair. Think about it, if a foreign government was occupying
> the United States, and this torture was done to US citizens on
> our own soil,
> would we not ask to be able to try those who committed such
> atrocities? Or
> would we accept the foreigners to punish them?
>
> This really is disgusting, sad, and humiliating. There are
> something like a
> 1000 photos and MPEGS of this torture, including people being
> sodomized by a
> light stick. My stomach turns, and I feel so sad and ashamed that our
> military, or anyone in it, and certainly not an entire unit, can
> participate
> in this, take photos, and have smiles on their face as they are
> doing it. I
> wonder if this is going on elsewhere in Iraq. What really are the chances
> someone could take 1000 photos unless it was happening more frequently.
>
> I really hope that everyone on this server list prays that this sort of
> thing stops everywhere, and that justice can come to those that
> participated
> and are responsible for the inhumane treatment of these people.
>
> This is something that will hurt all US Soldiers. We violate the Geneva
> Convention, and others will violate it against our captured troops. Look
> forward to this happening to our boys and girls in the future.
>
> So I think we should just leave these people over there. They
> obviously feel
> quiet comfortable anyway.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
> PS, I do not think this reflects the core values of the average
> soldier. But
> I think we need to bring them home if this is what 19 years old pregnant
> Privates end up doing over there. Philip Zimbardo did this
> experiment many
> years ago. The good people did the same thing they are doing in Iraq.
>
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