[Vision2020] Fuel Cells
David Douglas
ddouglas@pacsim.com
Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:11:23 -0500
Visionaries,
I asked for some specifics on a very "specific" event Wayne mentioned.
Some emails on this topic seemed to indicate that it was the concept that
really counted.
It was reasonable that businesses would do something like that, so, I would
gather, the specifics shouldn't be important.
Except they are, to me at least.
True enough that some businesses engage in
"widespread false misinformation and propaganda."
On the other hand, one should be prepared to support charges
about "stereo-typical" big business behavior contrary to public
good . If not, how is such a charge different from "widespread
false misinformation and propaganda."?
Yes, businesses act in their own self interest often unethically. But no
concrete examples were given of buying up a technology to
bury it. Especially, none even close to the original anecdote. Just
an appeal to the internet and all the stuff that must be out there.
"A real life example" was finally provided by Wayne: butter producers
used the government to inhibit the free trade of margarine. And I don't
dispute
the facts. It is a true enough example.....of resorting to legislation
to create a market advantage. Immoral on the part of both the businesses
and the legislators, in my opinion, but, alas, not an example of burying a
technology.
And we see how *well* it worked for the butter producers by the "lack" of
margarine on store shelves to this very day.
Perhaps if the butter producers like the oil consortium had
bought out the margarine producers. Doh!
It seems to me that people including researchers and greedy businessmen will
generally
know how to optimize their interests. The butter/butter case is a good
example of that.
Any technology that is a significant threat to, or competitor in, a market
is likely
a) Worth too much for you to buy in the first place
b) If sold to you, worth more as a product to be exploited than as a patent
to shelve.
If solar energy were a competitive fuel alternative and you were an oil
industry
executive, where would you spend your next dollar?
a) On a highly complex oil refinery to make gasoline
b) On a relatively simple bank of solar panels and
a relatively simple electrolysis process?
If you had two raw materials, crude oil and water, would you
a) sell the crude oil as fuel
b) make fuel out of water and sell the crude as raw material to the
chemical
manufacturers.
The world is full of clueless people, businessmen included, so there may be
a viable
technology gathering dust somewhere. Maybe even solar energy. But not by
any infor-
mation I've seen here. For all the emphasis lately on research,
facts, and logic, when it comes to providing any hard data on "buried" solar
cell
technology, they've all gone missing...and don't seem to be missed.
Best,
David Douglas
Troy, David, Tom
Here's a real life example from an old codger.
When I lived in Minnesota in the early 60's, you could not buy colored
margarine! (I never buy margarine anyway.)
For years the dairy industry in Minnesota prevented margarine from being
sold at all. When it was legalized it could only be sold uncolored although
a coloring packet was sometimes enclosed with the margarine.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Troy Merrill" <troy1@moscow.com>
To: "Art Deco aka W. Fox" <deco@moscow.com>; <vision2020@moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fuel Cells
> I am looking at a new bundle of checks (cheques for any Canadian readers)
> from Latah Federal Credit Union (a radical organization if there ever was
> one). The first sheet is an advertisement for hemp products. They may
not
> be ingestible but they are no loner indictable which they were not long
ago.
>
> Troy Merrill
> on the palouse again
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Art Deco aka W. Fox" <deco@moscow.com>
> To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fuel Cells
>
>
> > David, Tom, Troy,
> >
> > I have one current example which has been in the news lately.
> >
> > First, however, I do not want to be labeled as anti-business. Some
> > businesses are obviously less than honest as witnessed by the cascading
> > accounting fraud, insider trading, and company looting scandals.
> >
> > However, many companies react to new competitive technology and the like
> by
> > either trying to copy it or steal it by various methods or, most
laudably
> > and effectively, by trying to develop something even better.
> >
> > However, some try to prevent the widespread use of new technology and
> > knowledge by widespread false misinformation and propaganda.
> >
> > The example: The proposed use of industrial grade hemp in ingestible
> > products. Hemp has many great nutritional and medical properties e.g.
> high
> > in omega-3 fatty acids. For the last few years many competing commodity
> > groups have partially financed through various hysterical organizations
> > campaigns against the use of industrial hemp in ingestible products,
> falsely
> > claiming that industrial hemp has the same effect on humans as
marijuana.
> >
> > I have not Googled this subject, but you are welcome to do so. I would
> not
> > be surprised if you found hundreds of references verifying the above.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Troy Merrill" <troy1@moscow.com>
> > To: "David Douglas" <ddouglas@pacsim.com>; "'Art Deco aka W. Fox'"
> > <deco@moscow.com>; <vision2020@moscow.com>; <thansen@moscow.com>
> > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fuel Cells
> >
> >
> > > Tom,
> > > I have no reason to trust you.
> > >
> > > I think it much more likely that if the 'gizmo' you describe was
> invented
> > it
> > > would be aggressively marketed, that free enterprise thing.
> > >
> > > Your appeal to 'common sense' is strangely reminiscent of the
> 'Dougsters'
> > > appeal to the bible.
> > >
> > > Troy Merrill
> > > on the palouse again
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <thansen@moscow.com>
> > > To: "Troy Merrill" <troy1@moscow.com>; "David Douglas"
> > > <ddouglas@pacsim.com>; "'Art Deco aka W. Fox'" <deco@moscow.com>;
> > > <vision2020@moscow.com>; <thansen@moscow.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:55 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fuel Cells
> > >
> > >
> > > > Trust me. If somebody developed a walkie-talkie, that had a range
of
> > > 100,000
> > > > miles that operated on one AA battery with a shelf life of two
million
> > > years,
> > > > there would be alot of companies wanting to buy out the patent and
> > shelve
> > > > the "gizmo" (i.e. AT&T, Sprint, almost any telephone company.
> > > >
> > > > It is common sense.
> > > >
> > > > Tom Hansen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Tom,
> > > > > Perhaps you could supply a few examples of this common practice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Troy Merrill
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <thansen@moscow.com>
> > > > > To: "David Douglas" <ddouglas@pacsim.com>; "'Art Deco aka W. Fox'"
> > > > > <deco@moscow.com>; <vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:00 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fuel Cells
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > THis is common practice, Mr. Douglas -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any time somebody creates a gizmo that adversely impacts a
> company's
> > > > > bottom
> > > > > > line, the company does all in its power to "shelve" that gizmo.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wayne,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You write:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Many years ago a small company in southern California
developed
> > an
> > > > > > > economical method of using solar generated electrical power to
> > > produce
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > to store hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Guess what? The small company was bought by a petroleum
> > consortium
> > > and
> > > > > > > their research disappeared from commercial consideration as
did
> a
> > > number
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > other promising alternative energy proposals."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you have any specific data on this? The data might
include:
> > > > > > > small company name,
> > > > > > > petroleum consortium name,
> > > > > > > dates,
> > > > > > > patents.
> > > > > > > etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What you say may very well be true. But it is rife
> > > > > > > with generalities, reminiscent of the old story of the 100 mpg
> > > > > > > carburetor that has been kept from the market (for decades).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With specifics, this is an account of, at best, a truly
wasteful
> > > > > > > business practice. Without specifics, the account remains,
> > > > > > > as yet, unverifiable--a part of the realm of
> > > > > > > big-business-behaving-badly urban legends.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > David Douglas
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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