[Vision2020] Fw: Private [Says who]

[Art Deco aka W. Fox]

Saundra, et al,

Perhaps the Christ Church Cult leadership are not responding to your
questions because they have nothing believable to say.  Their dishonest
denials are almost always found out.

Didn't Christ say something about not bearing false witness?  But why should
that bother the cult leadership?  At times the Cult Master not only seems to
confuse himself with his God, but seems also to place himself above that
God.

I've known a lot of hypocritical groups, many of them political.  But the
Christ Church Cult leadership is the most dishonest, hypocritical,
egomaniacal, cowardly, and delusional that I have ever seen in my many years
(yes, I'm old) of investigation and muckraking.  In my view it would also be
hard to find a larger collection of unconfined mental health sufferers in
the leadership of any organization of the same size.

I feel genuinely sorry for those in the Christ Church congregation that are
trapped in its bogus theology and stifling, fear-permeated,
personality-worship culture. They must believe in exactly what the Cult
Master says or face penal reprisal if their disagreements are expressed and
continue to be held (e.g. Canon Press firing).

Perhaps, some local professional religious leaders and/or healers will
extend helping, caring, patient hands to those within the cult having doubts
not necessarily about Christianity but about its perversion by Cult Master
Douglas Wilson and his brown-faced toadies (not a racial reference, but
think Charmin and the source of the brown).

Though I am not a believer in the supernatural doctrines of Christianity, I
think many local Christian Churches offer a more joyful, less judgmental,
and deeper spiritual, more loving Christ-like experience than the cult could
ever hope to.  I hope that those in the cult who are committed to Christ can
escape to a more Christian haven of love, joy, forgiveness, and healing.
Some current members of the Christ Church congregation wishing to
investigate spiritual havens and viewpoints different from Christianity
where real love and caring is also found might  try the Unitarian Church.

If many Christians in the cult believe their God's love to be forgiving,
infinitely merciful, and all-encompassing, there is little eternal risk to
them in honestly trying to find a more truthful, less destructive, more
loving way to experience Him or alternatively, to find a larger, more humane
truth than that narrow view force-fed by the Cult Master.


Wayne Fox


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund@adelphia.net>
To: "'Art Deco aka W. Fox'" <deco@moscow.com>; <vision2020@moscow.com>
Cc: <credenda@moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Private [Says who]


> Visionaries,
>
> I'm cc'ing Mr. Jones so that if I misinterpret something he wrote
privately,
> he has the opportunity to correct my errors.
>
> I've written onlist before that any private nastygrams I receive in
response
> to V2020 posts I will free to post to V2020.  I think that sometimes
people
> respond privately when they have to no purpose other than to spew forth
> vitriol in the hope of bullying those with whom they disagree into
silence.
> I disagree with that tactic, so I'll not participate in the silence
> necessary for such tactics to succeed.
>
> I feel as though I'm in a bit of a quandary here.  It is true that Mr.
Jones
> responded to my questions privately (more on that in another paragraph).
> And, it was a reasonably pleasant private response (he extended an
> invitation to meet over a cup of coffee), if his response to my queries
> wasn't particularly helpful.  Thus, I didn't feel it appropriate to post
to
> V2020.
>
> I will say, however, that based on Mr. Jones'  private email, I don't
think
> we here in V2020-land should hold our breaths awaiting meaningful public
> participation from Mr. Jones anymore because my perception is that along
> with his boss Doug Wilson, he no longer finds this forum worthwhile.  'Tis
a
> pity, really, because I for one have learned a great deal (and more than
> just about Wilson World) from the individuals who make up this forum.
>
> In fairness, I do want to say that while I don't think Mr. Jones will
> participate in meaningful dialogue on V2020, I think there are indications
> that Wilson and Jones might respond to privately asked questions.  We've
> seen some communication between Bill London and Doug Wilson (which Wilson
> agreed to have shared with V2020 readers, although I remain confused why
> Wilson doesn't write to V2020 directly in answer), and Doug Jones thinks
he
> answered my questions.
>
> My questions <sigh>.  Lest anyone think I'm withholding meaningful
answers,
> let me assure you that I'm *not*.  I don't know if Jones was just toying
> with me or if he truly thinks he answered my questions in a helpful
manner.
> To recap, I asked the following questions in the following order:
> [with respect to the Christ Church hierarchy's handling of the Morton
Street
> Casino/payoff/Lounge affairs and Jones' assertion of a public meeting to
> explain Wilson World's handling of the thing]
> 1.  Can you provide more information about this public meeting?
> 2.  When & where was it held and how was it publicized?
> 3.  Did any news reporters attend?
> [with respect to the removal of the explanation and alleged facts of the
> affairs from Christ Church's web site]
> 4.  Am I correctly understanding that Christ Church's official explanation
> has now been permanently removed?
> [with respect to Jones' assertion that an unnamed pastor involved in
> reviewing Christ Church's handling of the affairs thought the handling was
> "brilliant"]
> 5.  And, what denominational group was that?
> 6.  Surely you're not referencing Wilson's CRE (Confederation of Reformed
> Evangelicals)?
> 7.  If so, then isn't saying "One pastor who was part of a denominational
> group reviewing our handling of this situation said it was a brilliant
> solution," akin to having the fox watch the hen house???
> 8.  If not, why not?
>
> Mr. Jones' answers?
> "yes, no, yes, no, and no"
> Those are the answers I received privately in their entirety.
>
> They are answers to *some* of the questions, but they don't really provide
> any information, do they?  Jones *could* tell us more about the alleged
> public meeting, but he doesn't.
>
> I keep reflecting back on something Melynda Huskey wrote a week or two
ago:
> "Conflict theory teaches that two preconditions have to exist for
conflict:
> competing needs and interdependence. This fight is still simmering because
> we aren't living together very well and we can't not live together.
Neither
> of those conditions is going to change by itself. . . And conflicts can
only
> be resolved if everybody is present in good faith, willing to listen, to
be
> flexible, to learn from each other. We may not have that good faith with
one
> another--we certainly don't have much trust."
> (2/23/2004)
>
> I don't know how I/we can have that good faith (let alone trust) when one
> side of this particular conflict has chosen of late to absent itself
> generally speaking (there are a few exceptions I don't want to be accused
of
> not noticing or appreciating) from all but insults, pseudonyms, and wicked
> parodies.  Mr. Wilson and his minions' voluntary absences except to hurl
> insults, either publicly or privately, indicates to me that the upper
> echelons of Christ Church/Wilson World is *not* present in good faith and
> has no genuine interest in resolving the unrest in any way other than
their
> way.
>
>
>
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> nothing.
> -Edmund Burke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On
> Behalf Of Art Deco aka W. Fox
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 1:52 PM
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Private [Says who]
>
>
> Private uninformative, insulting emails from Vision 2020 queries readings
> will always be posted -- cowardice to deal in the marketplace of ideas is
> not a pretty site.
>
> I think that we can conclude that Doug Jones lied about the public meeting
> on the casino.
>
> It is also appears that Logos is ashamed or embarrassed about the contents
> of the course "Biblical Femininity"
>
> If the below is an example of what to expect from the cult in response to
a
> simple request for facts, it appears that Rose's castrating wit has
claimed
> more victims then first thought.
>
> Wayne Fox
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Doug Jones" <credenda@moscow.com>
> To: "'Art Deco aka W. Fox'" <deco@moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:37 AM
> Subject: Private
>
>
> > Wayne,
> >
> > Can you remind me again, Wayne, why I should take time to care what you
> > think? I'm quite happy to let you believe a whole hill of lies; it's fun
> > to watch and an affordable loss. Don't listen to anything cultists like
> > me say, Wayne; we'll only lead you astray.
> >
> > I responded to Saundra privately.
> >
> > Are you leading the good life yet, Wayne? If I saw you on the street
> > would I think "there goes a person who loves life?" Do you do anything
> > creative?
> >
> > Doug Jones
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Art Deco aka W. Fox
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:58 PM
> > > To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] dougsplotch.net
> > >
> > > Doug Jones, et al,
> > >
> > > I know that I am slow-witted and semi-senile.  However, I don't
> > remember
> > > your posting an answer to Saundra Lund's questions below.
> > >
> > > Even worse, I don't remember the public meeting on the Casino issue at
> > all.
> > > Neither does the LMT.  A search of their archives under many different
> > > keywords returns no article mentioning a public meeting on this issue.
> > Of
> > > course, all my friends are slow-witted wastrels also, but none of them
> > can
> > > remember such a meeting either.
> > >
> > > Perhaps, you would be so kind to jog our rotting memories with the
> > date of
> > > and the general comments made at such meeting.
> > >
> > > Perhaps, you would also be so gracious so as to respond to the V 2020
> > query
> > > yesterday about the "Biblical Femininity" course taught at Logos
> > School.
> > > There's nothing too graphic or esoteric about it to be ashamed of is
> > there?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Wayne Fox
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund@adelphia.net>
> > > To: "'Doug Jones'" <credenda@moscow.com>; "'Vision 20/20'"
> > > <vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 2:46 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] dougsplotch.net
> > >
> > >
> > > > Doug Jones wrote:
> > > > "Now I'm taking my winnings and heading for a night out at the Red
> > Door."
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully, this will catch you before you head out.  I asked the
> > following
> > > > questions yesterday in response to your post and am still awaiting
> > > answers:
> > > >
> > > > Doug Jones wrote:
> > > > "We openly explained our decision in a public meeting almost a year
> > ago .
> > > .
> > > > . "
> > > >
> > > > Well, that's a public meeting I somehow unfortunately missed.  Can
> > you
> > > > provide more information about this public meeting?  When & where
> > was it
> > > > held and how was it publicized?  Did any news reporters attend?  I
> > don't
> > > > recall reading/seeing any coverage of the meeting, which I find
> > somewhat
> > > > surprising given the subject matter and number of press at the more
> > recent
> > > > so-called "Town Hall meeting".  I was out-of-state a fair amount in
> > 2003,
> > > > but I read the newspapers after each trip and just don't recall
> > reading
> > > > anything about this, so I'd appreciate more information about Christ
> > > > Church's actions regarding this horrendous organized wickedness.
> > > >
> > > > Doug Jones also wrote:
> > > > ". . . and we posted that explanation for months."
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I notice Christ Church's explanation of the illegal activities
> > and
> > > the
> > > > Church's active role in the aftermath are now gone, which really is
> > too
> > > bad
> > > > for those of us interested in truth.  After looking at
> > > www.dougsplotch.net,
> > > > I wanted to compare/contrast the info there to what I'd read on the
> > Christ
> > > > Church site, but the links for those specific "Bizarre Charges"
> > ("Theft,
> > > > Tyranny, Cover-up, Violence, and Other "Irremediable Wickedness
> > Against
> > > the
> > > > Lord Jesus Christ.") seem to be broken.  I thought perhaps the
> > Christ
> > > Church
> > > > web site was having difficulties (perhaps because so many of the
> > minions
> > > > have been busy with their Hate Splotch), but am I correctly
> > understanding
> > > > now that Christ Church's official explanation has now been
> > permanently
> > > > removed?  If so, what a pity.
> > > >
> > > > Doug Jones further wrote:
> > > > "One pastor who was part of a denominational group reviewing our
> > handling
> > > of
> > > > this situation said it was a brilliant solution."
> > > >
> > > > And, what denominational group was that?  Surely you're not
> > referencing
> > > > Wilson's CRE (Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals)?  If so, then
> > isn't
> > > > saying "One pastor who was part of a denominational group reviewing
> > our
> > > > handling of this situation said it was a brilliant solution," akin
> > to
> > > having
> > > > the fox watch the hen house???  If not, why not?
> > > >
> > > > Saundra Lund
> > > > Moscow, ID
> > > >
> > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
> > to do
> > > > nothing.
> > > > -Edmund Burke
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com
> > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]
> > > On
> > > > Behalf Of Doug Jones
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 10:35 AM
> > > > To: 'Vision 20/20'
> > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] dougsplotch.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Some anonymous person writing about shame and integrity wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A kirker in good standing recently told me, "Doug Jones is going
> > > > straight to
> > > > > hell." He went on to describe Jones as the "Wormtongue" of Christ
> > > > Church.
> > > > > This kirker is not alone. A local pastor calls Doug Jones the
> > Joseph
> > > > > Goebbels of Christ Church
> > > >
> > > > Woohoo! I won! I won! Hell, Wormtongue AND Goebbels!  I finally won
> > the
> > > > office pool!  It's taken a long time, but I'm glad to be on top. Now
> > I'm
> > > > taking my winnings and heading for a night out at the Red Door.
> > > >
> > > > Doug Jones
>
>
>
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