[Vision2020] Quaker GI flees Army Unit
Tim Lohrmann
timlohr@yahoo.com
Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:27:51 -0800 (PST)
--0-55027391-1077557271=:95458
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Tom,
Like I said, I agree.
Also, I'm not selling anything.
TL
Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
According to the article Jeremy Hinzman is a first-term enlistee in the infantry. According to himself, what attracted Jeremy to the Army was subsidized housing, groceries, and money for college. Being a first-term infantry enlistee, I am certain that he also received a major enlistment bonus (in the neighborhood of $12,000 to $15,000) upon successful completion of infantry training. If, for some reason or another, he is unable to complete his 3-, 4-, 5-, or 6-year contract he may be required to return a portion of that bonus.
My guess is that he enjoyed the benefits and simply did not want to fulfil his part of the contract. Could you imagine the precedent it would set if the Army let him out of his contract/enlistment without any repercussions?????
Sorry, Tim. I am not buying it.
Tom Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 5:19 PM
To: thansen@moscow.com
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Quaker GI flees Army Unit
Tom,
I agree, there's a huge diff. between being drafted and forced versus signing up on your own free will.
I respect his religious views, but after all you gotta expect that if you're going into the army they're gonna want you to learn to kill.
TL
Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
AWOLs and "desertion" for religious reasons (Quaker, this time) are very very common.
In 1991 a soldier refused to ship out with his unit to Iraq. This was reported by CNN.
During Vietnam, people refused to register with the Selective Service System (spelled D-R-A-F-T) and many of them went to Canada.
It is easier to understand why draftees refuse to "go". In today's All Volunteer Army, I simply cannot understand this refusal to "go". I am certain that they understood what was ahead of them when they raised their hand and took the oath. They had to have realized that the Army is alot more than sitting back and collecting a paycheck twice a month.
I have absolutely no sympathy for an enlistee that refuses to go, based on his/her religious convictions. His/Her religious convistions didn't keep him/her from enlisting.
What ever happened to the old saying, "Serving Proudly"?
I consider these people to be a personal slap in the faced of all those who went before them.
Take care,
Tom Hansen
SFC, U.S. Army (Retired)
Not On The Palouse, Not Ever
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail. But, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 1:03 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Quaker GI flees Army Unit
Visioners,
The first real desertion I've seen reported since the Iraqi invasion started.
I understand there are plenty of AWOL's though.
TL
http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=military&Story=6185924
Published on: 2004-02-19
Quaker deserts as unit deploys
By Julia Oliver
Staff writer
Contributed photo
Jeremy Hinzman fled to Canada with his wife, Nga Nguyen, and their son, Liam, in January.
Jeremy Hinzman said he could barely stomach chanting "kill we will" during basic training and, as a Quaker, he didn't want to shoot anybody. But it was the thought of serving U.S. interests in Iraq that made the 82nd Airborne Division specialist flee to Canada last month.
"I would have felt no different than a private in the German Army during World War II," he said by phone from Toronto, where he is seeking refugee status.
Hinzman, 25, who was a member of the 2nd Battalion of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment, is subject to prosecution as a deserter if he is caught within U.S. borders.
His name will go on a national database that law enforcement officers can access, said Sgt. Pam Smith, a spokeswoman for the 82nd Airborne. He can be arrested, but the Army won't go looking for him, she said.
"We don't have time to go and track down people who go AWOL," she said. "We're fighting a war."
Hinzman, who grew up in Ra! ! pid City, S.D., joined the Army in January 2001. The socialist structure of the military appealed to him, he said. He liked the subsidized housing and groceries and, at the end of his service, the money for college.
"It seemed like a good financial decision," he said. And, he said, "I had a romantic vision of what the Army was."
But from the beginning, basic training bothered him. He said he was horrified by the chanting about blood and killing during marches, by the shooting at targets without faces and by what he called the dehumanization of the enemy.
"It's like watching some kind of scary movie, except I was in it," he said. "People would just walk around saying things like, 'Oh, I want to kill somebody.'"
He felt that the prospect of killing should be taken more seriously and that soldiers should not talk about death in such a cavalier way, he said.
In August 2002, Hinzman turned in his first application to be a conscientious objector. He wanted to f! ulfill! his service obligation, he said, but he didn't want to participate in combat. He wrote a six-page explanation of his beliefs, but the Army told him it was lost.
"I was informed three months later that it was never received," he said. Last fall, while doing clerical work, he was given a file that included that application.
By the time Hinzman applied again at the end of October, his unit was on track to go to Afghanistan. He deployed in December, and the application was pending.
"I didn't mind being deployed. I just didn't want to shoot anybody," he said.
Not allowed to go on patrol, he worked as a dishwasher, often 15 hours a day and, for the first few months, without a day off. He said his unit didn't get into any major combat.
Application denied
While he was in Afghanistan, his application for conscientious objector status was evaluated and denied, he said. Hinzman said he thinks one question - Would he defe! nd h! is unit if attacked? - destroyed his chances. He said he answered yes, reasoning that he had no choice if he was forced to carry a gun.
"I was a little bit too honest, I guess," he said.
In July, he returned to Fayetteville, and to his wife, Nga Nguyen, and their 14-month-old son, Liam.
"My son, of course, was a little bit shy about seeing me, but that went away after a few hours," he said.
He and Nguyen figured it was only a matter of time before his unit would go to Iraq. He said he felt the war there was unjust and was being fought over oil interests.
"Had we, say, gone to war with North Korea or someone that was an imminent threat, I would have gone along with it," he said. "I signed up to defend our country, not be a pawn in some sort of political ideology."
He began to think about his options. And about what he might have to do if he went to Iraq.
On Dec. 20, Hinzman found out that his unit would be deployed. And on Jan. 2, he packed his ! famil! y into his car for the 18-hour drive to Canada. The three left at night, on the Friday of a four-day weekend. Hinzman's absence wasn't noticed until that Monday; he wasn't declared AWOL until the following day.
Support network
Through his philosophical objections to the Army, Hinzman has received much support from Quakers in Fayetteville and Toronto. He has always been interested in Buddhism, he said, but joined the Friends Meeting after he moved to Fayetteville and couldn't find a place to worship in the Buddhist faith.
"The Quaker's mode of worship was closest to meditation because it's silent," he said. In Toronto, the Quakers took Hinzman and his family in while they looked for an apartment, he said.
Ann Ashford, recording clerk at the Fayetteville Friends Meeting, said Hinzman and his wife were faithful attendees of the meetings. She said the community supports Hinzman, but no one at the meeting knew he was planning to desert.
"We're all very concerned about him," she said.
Ashford said Hinzman spoke with Chuck Fager, executive director of the Quaker House, a related organization that counsels soldiers who are seeking discharge from the military. Fager could not be reached Wednesday but has said in an e-mail that calls to the organization's hot line from service members and their families last year reached a record total of 6,187, up by 50 percent from the year before.
According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Hinzman is believed to be the first U.S. soldier filing for refugee status in Canada for refusing duty in Iraq. During the Vietnam War, an estimated 30,000 Americans sought refuge in Canada to avoid compulsory military service.
Hinzman's chances of receiving refugee status are statistically slim: According to Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board, none of the 268 American applicants last year was accepted. But people who are denied refugee status are not automatically deported; they may be granted permission to stay in Canada under other provisions, said Charles Hawkins, a spokesman for the board.
Hinzman knows that the decisio! ! n will take awhile.
"It's a big drawn-out process," he said.
He said that the hardest part has been leaving the people in his unit, which is still in Iraq.
"I didn't do this out of animosity toward them," he said, "but toward the situation we were in."
Staff writer Julia Oliver can be reached at oliverj@fayettevillenc.com or 323-4848, ext. 280.
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<DIV>
<DIV>Tom,</DIV>
<DIV> Like I said, I agree. </DIV>
<DIV> Also, I'm not selling anything. <A href="http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001" target=_blank><IMG alt="I Dunno" src="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_10.gif" border=0></A> </DIV>
<DIV> TL<BR><BR><B><I>Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=166523801-23022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>According to the article Jeremy Hinzman is a first-term enlistee in the infantry. According to himself, what attracted Jeremy to the Army was subsidized housing, groceries, and money for college. Being a first-term infantry enlistee, I am certain that he also received a major enlistment bonus (in the neighborhood of $12,000 to $15,000) upon successful completion of infantry training. If, for some reason or another, he is unable to complete his 3-, 4-, 5-, or 6-year contract he may be required to return a portion of that bonus.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=166523801-23022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=166523801-23022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>My guess is that he enjoyed the benefits and simply did not want to fulfil his part of the contract. Could you imagine the precedent it would set if the Army let him out of his contract/enlistment without any repercussions?????</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=166523801-23022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=166523801-23022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Sorry, Tim. I am not buying it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=166523801-23022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=166523801-23022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Tom Hansen</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Tim Lohrmann<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2004 5:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> thansen@moscow.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Quaker GI flees Army Unit<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Tom,</DIV>
<DIV> I agree, there's a huge diff. between being drafted and forced versus signing up on your own free will. </DIV>
<DIV> I respect his religious views, but after all you gotta expect that if you're going into the army they're gonna want you to learn to kill. <BR> TL<BR><B><I>Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>AWOLs and "desertion" for religious reasons (Quaker, this time) are very very common. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>In 1991 a soldier refused to ship out with his unit to Iraq. This was reported by CNN.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>During Vietnam, people refused to register with the Selective Service System (spelled D-R-A-F-T) and many of them went to Canada.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>It is easier to understand why draftees refuse to "go". In today's All Volunteer Army, I simply cannot understand this refusal to "go". I am certain that they understood what was ahead of them when they raised their hand and took the oath. They had to have realized that the Army is alot more than sitting back and collecting a paycheck twice a month.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>I have absolutely no sympathy for an enlistee that refuses to go, based on his/her religious convictions. His/Her religious convistions didn't keep him/her from enlisting.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>What ever happened to the old saying, "Serving Proudly"?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>I consider these people to be a personal slap in the faced of all those who went before them.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Take care,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Tom Hansen</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>SFC, U.S. Army (Retired)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Not On The Palouse, Not Ever</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=908301323-22022004>
<P><FONT size=2> A good friend will come and bail you out of jail. But, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"</FONT></P></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Tim Lohrmann<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2004 1:03 PM<BR><B>To:</B> vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Quaker GI flees Army Unit<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Visioners, </DIV>
<DIV> The first real desertion I've seen reported since the Iraqi invasion started.</DIV>
<DIV> I understand there are plenty of AWOL's though. </DIV>
<DIV> TL<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=military&Story=6185924">http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=military&Story=<SPAN></SPAN>6185924</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=-4><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=-2>Published on: 2004-02-19</FONT><BR><FONT color=#000000 size=-2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=+1><B>Quaker deserts as unit deploys<BR></B></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=-1><B>By Julia Oliver</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=-1><B>Staff writer<BR><BR><BR></B></FONT><FONT color=#000000 size=-2>Contributed photo<BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=-1><B>Jeremy Hinzman fled to Canada with his wife, Nga Nguyen, and their son, Liam, in January.</B></FONT><BR><FONT color=#000000 size=-4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=-1>Jeremy Hinzman said he could barely stomach chanting "kill we will" during basic training and, as a Quaker, he didn't want to shoot anybody. But it was the thought of serving U.S. interests in Iraq that made the 82nd Airborne Division specialist flee to Canada last month.<BR><BR>"I would have felt no different than a private in the German Army during World War II," he said by phone from Toronto, where he is seeking refugee status.<BR>Hinzman, 25, who was a member of the 2nd Battalion of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment, is subject to prosecution as a deserter if he is caught within U.S. borders.<BR><BR>His name will go on a national database that law enforcement officers can access, said Sgt. Pam Smith, a spokeswoman for the 82nd Airborne. He can be arrested, but the Army won't go looking for him, she said.<BR>"We don't have time to go and track down people who go AWOL," she said. "We're fighting a war."<BR><BR>Hinzman, who grew up in Ra!
! ! pid
City, S.D., joined the Army in January 2001. The socialist structure of the military appealed to him, he said. He liked the subsidized housing and groceries and, at the end of his service, the money for college.<BR>"It seemed like a good financial decision," he said. And, he said, "I had a romantic vision of what the Army was."<BR><BR>But from the beginning, basic training bothered him. He said he was horrified by the chanting about blood and killing during marches, by the shooting at targets without faces and by what he called the dehumanization of the enemy.<BR>"It's like watching some kind of scary movie, except I was in it," he said. "People would just walk around saying things like, 'Oh, I want to kill somebody.'"<BR><BR>He felt that the prospect of killing should be taken more seriously and that soldiers should not talk about death in such a cavalier way, he said.<BR>In August 2002, Hinzman turned in his first application to be a conscientious objector. He wanted to f!
! ulfill!
his service obligation, he said, but he didn't want to participate in combat. He wrote a six-page explanation of his beliefs, but the Army told him it was lost.<BR><BR>"I was informed three months later that it was never received," he said. Last fall, while doing clerical work, he was given a file that included that application.<BR>By the time Hinzman applied again at the end of October, his unit was on track to go to Afghanistan. He deployed in December, and the application was pending.<BR><BR>"I didn't mind being deployed. I just didn't want to shoot anybody," he said.<BR>Not allowed to go on patrol, he worked as a dishwasher, often 15 hours a day and, for the first few months, without a day off. He said his unit didn't get into any major combat.<BR><BR><FONT face=Arial><B>Application denied<BR><BR></B></FONT>While he was in Afghanistan, his application for conscientious objector status was evaluated and denied, he said. Hinzman said he thinks one question - Would he defe!
! nd h!
is unit if attacked? - destroyed his chances. He said he answered yes, reasoning that he had no choice if he was forced to carry a gun.<BR><BR>"I was a little bit too honest, I guess," he said.<BR>In July, he returned to Fayetteville, and to his wife, Nga Nguyen, and their 14-month-old son, Liam.<BR>"My son, of course, was a little bit shy about seeing me, but that went away after a few hours," he said.<BR><BR>He and Nguyen figured it was only a matter of time before his unit would go to Iraq. He said he felt the war there was unjust and was being fought over oil interests.<BR>"Had we, say, gone to war with North Korea or someone that was an imminent threat, I would have gone along with it," he said. "I signed up to defend our country, not be a pawn in some sort of political ideology."<BR>He began to think about his options. And about what he might have to do if he went to Iraq.<BR><BR>On Dec. 20, Hinzman found out that his unit would be deployed. And on Jan. 2, he packed h!
is !
famil! y into his car for the 18-hour drive to Canada. The three left at night, on the Friday of a four-day weekend. Hinzman's absence wasn't noticed until that Monday; he wasn't declared AWOL until the following day.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=-1><BR><FONT face=Arial><B>Support network<BR><BR></B></FONT>Through his philosophical objections to the Army, Hinzman has received much support from Quakers in Fayetteville and Toronto. He has always been interested in Buddhism, he said, but joined the Friends Meeting after he moved to Fayetteville and couldn't find a place to worship in the Buddhist faith.<BR>"The Quaker's mode of worship was closest to meditation because it's silent," he said. In Toronto, the Quakers took Hinzman and his family in while they looked for an apartment, he said.<BR><BR>Ann Ashford, recording clerk at the Fayetteville Friends Meeting, said Hinzman and his wife were faithful attendees of the meetings. She said the community supports Hinzman, but no one at the meeting knew he was planning to desert.<BR>"We're all very concerned about him," she said.<BR><BR>Ashford said Hinzman spoke with Chuck Fager, executive director of the Quaker House, a related organization that
counsels soldiers who are seeking discharge from the military. Fager could not be reached Wednesday but has said in an e-mail that calls to the organization's hot line from service members and their families last year reached a record total of 6,187, up by 50 percent from the year before.<BR><BR>According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Hinzman is believed to be the first U.S. soldier filing for refugee status in Canada for refusing duty in Iraq. During the Vietnam War, an estimated 30,000 Americans sought refuge in Canada to avoid compulsory military service.<BR><BR>Hinzman's chances of receiving refugee status are statistically slim: According to Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board, none of the 268 American applicants last year was accepted. But people who are denied refugee status are not automatically deported; they may be granted permission to stay in Canada under other provisions, said Charles Hawkins, a spokesman for the board.<BR><BR>Hinzman knows that the decisio!
! ! n
will take awhile.<BR>"It's a big drawn-out process," he said.<BR>He said that the hardest part has been leaving the people in his unit, which is still in Iraq.<BR><BR>"I didn't do this out of animosity toward them," he said, "but toward the situation we were in."<BR><BR>Staff writer Julia Oliver can be reached at</FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#417a60 size=-1><B> oliverj@fayettevillenc.com</B></FONT><FONT color=#000000 size=-1> or 323-4848, ext. 280.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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