[Vision2020] My Concerns about "Not on the Palouse Not Ever"
bill london
london@moscow.com
Thu, 05 Feb 2004 09:36:08 -0800
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D-
you are against "attacking people for their faith."
So am I. People have a right to their religious beliefs.
However, Doug Wilson is a political figure and Christ Church has a
political agenda.
And those who disagree with those Christ Church political activities
have a right, and indeed an obligation, to speak out.
BL
DonovArn@aol.com wrote:
> Tom and others,
>
> I do agree that it is important to stand up against discrimination. I
> also agree with what you are "trying" to do, or your "intentions".
> However, I have some concerns.
>
> First, I want to say that I have been a legal resident of Moscow, ID,
> all but about 8 years of my life. I was born here, my Mother was born
> here, my Uncle, Aunts, Sisters, a niece, and dozens of cousins and
> other relatives have all been born somewhere around the Palouse or
> lived here most their life. My Grandfather, and Great-grandparents are
> buried here in Moscow, and my ancestors take up huge plots in Moscow,
> Pullman, and even Spokane cemeteries.
>
> My Family has also been very active in the community. Three of my
> close Family members have been members of the Chamber of Commerce,
> including two that were Chair of the Board at some time or another. My
> Grandfather, although a business man, did lots of community work
> including the establishment of Stepping Stones, which is now Miles
> Stones. Three of my family members have or do teach for the University
> of Idaho in subjects of Accounting, Engineering, and English. I have
> no clue how many members of my Family are graduates or former students
> of UI, but I do know that it is over a dozen over the last 50 years.
> And many of you here in the community know my Family's involvement in
> Business in the community and I am grateful for their support over the
> last 60 years.
>
> The reason that I say these things is because I want to point out that
> I am not some college kid that just got here. I am a member of this
> community and my family is directly effected by the prosperity or any
> damage brought to Moscow.
>
> This is why I am concerned by "Not on the Palouse, Not Ever". I am
> Catholic. And many of the things that you attack Christ Church for
> also directly attack me, my family, friends, neighbors, and other long
> upstanding members of our community today and in Moscow's Past. This
> is cause for concern. I am not Catholic because I agree with all the
> teachings and believes taught by the Church, which change with each
> Pope anyway. I am not Catholic because I agree that we should not use
> Birth Control, or because Abortion is a sin, or Homosexuality is
> Immoral or Unnatural. I am a Catholic because my Mom is a Catholic,
> Her Mom was a Catholic, and Her Mom, and Her Mom, all the way back as
> far as we know. I am also Catholic because I agree with the basic
> tenants of the Church. It is not by any means perfect, and I hardly
> know any single person that is Catholic that agrees with everything it
> teaches, not even Priests and Nuns. Truth be told, there are probably
> 100 other churches that are more in line with my social beliefs. But
> being Catholic is in my Blood, it is what I know and what I have
> always known. If I was not Catholic, I would not be who I am today, or
> be around today because of what the Church has done in past
> generations for my Family. I stick with the Catholic Church regardless
> of how silly, out of date, chauvinistic, homophobic, racist, or plain
> outright insane doctrines the current Pope at the time is espousing.
>
> The reason I state this is for three major reasons.
>
> 1) I believe that religion and matters of faith, or personal spiritual
> beliefs, are deeply sensitive and personal issues. People's passions
> run very high. I feel you are trying to use "logic" to address issues
> of faith. If we used "logic" faith would not exist. You cannot prove
> or disprove God's existence So it is illogical to even acknowledge God
> anyway other than as personal security in self determination of
> everlasting life. Faith is a matter of pure emotion and personal
> experiences in life. You cannot change those with words of logic. No
> matter how much logic you use, I will never change faiths. I don't
> care what you, or anybody else says, does or proves with science, not
> even the Pope, I am, and always will be, Catholic.
> I can only conclude that everyone else feels the SAME way about their
> faith or religious ideology.
>
> 2) Who is next? I mean most major religions preach or have a doctrine
> of some type of social injustice to one group of people. It does not
> mean that the members of that church feel the truthfulness of the
> doctrine in the same way but nonetheless they still exist in the
> community. Catholics, Morons, Muslims, Protestants, Jews, all exist in
> our community for the purposes of spreading their doctrines and faith
> in God. All of them have some form of archaic doctrine which is
> slanted against Women, Gays, and others, are you going to target these
> churches too, if not, please explain the difference and why?
>
> 3) What is your goal(s)? What do you hope to accomplish? How is what
> you are doing going to accomplish this goal(s)?
> I don't understand. Are you hoping to use logic and make people say to
> themselves "Gee, what a logical point, I am not going to follow Christ
> Church anymore." Are you hoping that people's faith in the church will
> go away because others attack it? That people will say, "I don't want
> to belong to a church when my faith is challenged". I think this only
> reinforces it and makes the members more likely to be tight and close.
> Are you hoping to prevent new members from joining Christ Church? This
> might work, unless your advertising of it attracts new members more
> quickly than your ability to persuade people not to follow it. If
> advertising didn't work, not many business would use it. Every cult
> in America has gone up in membership when it hit the news, not
> down. How do you plan to counter this fact? Do you have any evidence
> that your efforts are hurting the church in numbers or finances?
>
> My point is this: I don't like it at all when religions or others do
> things to preach hatred or discrimination against others in society. I
> think it wrong. I have fought against the Aryan Nations in Hayden when
> I lived there for 8 years. I reported the members of the UI Student
> Government when they burnt the Gay/Straight Alliance Flag when I was
> in the student Senate. I was Vice President of the Human Equality Club
> at North Idaho College, and a member of Northwest Coalition Against
> Malicious Harassment that had a great deal to with the hiring of
> Morris Dees and the lawsuit that brought down the Aryan Nation
> Compound that was one mile, by flight of bird, behind my house.
>
> I think their are better ways of going against Christ Church that are
> more effective. I would do what we did. We raised money by taking
> pledges of members of the community for every mile that the Aryan
> Nations marched downtown. We than used the money to advance Human
> Rights in the area. One year alone we made $45,000. We also held
> competing events with the Aryan Nations. That is, whenever they had an
> event, we had a human rights event at the same time in another
> location out of view of theirs. We would always match the crowds they got.
> I would do the same thing. Have Human Rights events at the same time
> as them. If they put a coffee stand and give out Chocolate Chip
> cookies, set up a Coffee Stand too, and give out three kinds of
> cookies. For money, I would take pledges from the community to give
> money for every minute that Mr. Wilson talks, then use that money to
> promote something positive, like money to save the homeless shelter.
>
> Otherwise, I must state honestly, as a Liberal, and someone whose
> candidacy for Student Government was heavy backed by the UI Socialist
> Party Club, I think you are doing more harm to the community than
> helping it and illustrating the other side of discrimination and
> intolerance. I would like to ask you to please stop attacking
> religion. Challenging ideas is GREAT. Attacking people for their
> faith, no matter how wrong, twisted, or misdirected, I think is unfair
> and undemocratic.
>
> I don't suppose that this email will make me very popular with members
> of Not on the Palouse or Christ Church. Nonetheless, I think it is
> important to express my concern of two small but growing and opposing
> factions that are dividing our community. I really don't like to see
> it and it makes me very sad raises concerns.
>
> Thank You and Take Care,
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
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D-<br>
you are against "attacking people for their faith."<br>
So am I. People have a right to their religious beliefs.<br>
However, Doug Wilson is a political figure and Christ Church has a
political agenda.<br>
And those who disagree with those Christ Church political activities
have a right, and indeed an obligation, to speak out.<br>
BL<br>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DonovArn@aol.com">DonovArn@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid15c.2c64b264.2d533c06@aol.com">
<meta charset="UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
<meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name="GENERATOR">
<div>Tom and others,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do agree that it is important to stand up against
discrimination. I also agree with what you are "trying" to do, or your
"intentions". However, I have some concerns.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>First, I want to say that I have been a legal resident of
Moscow, ID, all but about 8 years of my life. I was born here, my
Mother was born here, my Uncle, Aunts, Sisters, a niece, and dozens of
cousins and other relatives have all been born somewhere around the
Palouse or lived here most their life. My Grandfather, and
Great-grandparents are buried here in Moscow, and my ancestors take up
huge plots in Moscow, Pullman, and even Spokane cemeteries. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>My Family has also been very active in the community. Three of
my close Family members have been members of the Chamber of Commerce,
including two that were Chair of the Board at some time or another. My
Grandfather, although a business man, did lots of community work
including the establishment of Stepping Stones, which is now Miles
Stones. Three of my family members have or do teach for the University
of Idaho in subjects of Accounting, Engineering, and English. I have no
clue how many members of my Family are graduates or former students of
UI, but I do know that it is over a dozen over the last 50 years. And
many of you here in the community know my Family's involvement in
Business in the community and I am grateful for their support over the
last 60 years.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The reason that I say these things is because I want to point
out that I am not some college kid that just got here. I am a member of
this community and my family is directly effected by the prosperity
or any damage brought to Moscow.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is why I am concerned by "Not on the Palouse, Not Ever". I
am Catholic. And many of the things that you attack Christ Church for
also directly attack me, my family, friends, neighbors, and other long
upstanding members of our community today and in Moscow's Past. This is
cause for concern. I am not Catholic because I agree with all the
teachings and believes taught by the Church, which change with each
Pope anyway. I am not Catholic because I agree that we should not use
Birth Control, or because Abortion is a sin, or Homosexuality is
Immoral or Unnatural. I am a Catholic because my Mom is a Catholic, Her
Mom was a Catholic, and Her Mom, and Her Mom, all the way back as far
as we know. I am also Catholic because I agree with the basic tenants
of the Church. It is not by any means perfect, and I hardly know any
single person that is Catholic that agrees with everything it teaches,
not even Priests and Nuns. Truth be told, there are probably 100 other
churches that are more in line with my social beliefs. But being
Catholic is in my Blood, it is what I know and what I have always
known. If I was not Catholic, I would not be who I am today, or be
around today because of what the Church has done in past generations
for my Family. I stick with the Catholic Church regardless of how
silly, out of date, chauvinistic, homophobic, racist, or plain outright
insane doctrines the current Pope at the time is espousing. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The reason I state this is for three major reasons. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>1) I believe that religion and matters of faith, or personal
spiritual beliefs, are deeply sensitive and personal issues. People's
passions run very high. I feel you are trying to use "logic" to address
issues of faith. If we used "logic" faith would not exist. You cannot
prove or disprove God's existence So it is illogical to even
acknowledge God anyway other than as personal security in self
determination of everlasting life. Faith is a matter of pure emotion
and personal experiences in life. You cannot change those with words of
logic. No matter how much logic you use, I will never change faiths. I
don't care what you, or anybody else says, does or proves with science,
not even the Pope, I am, and always will be, Catholic.</div>
<div>I can only conclude that everyone else feels the SAME way about
their faith or religious ideology. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>2) Who is next? I mean most major religions preach or have a
doctrine of some type of social injustice to one group of people. It
does not mean that the members of that church feel the truthfulness of
the doctrine in the same way but nonetheless they still exist in the
community. Catholics, Morons, Muslims, Protestants, Jews, all exist in
our community for the purposes of spreading their doctrines and faith
in God. All of them have some form of archaic doctrine which is slanted
against Women, Gays, and others, are you going to target these
churches too, if not, please explain the difference and why?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3) What is your goal(s)? What do you hope to accomplish? How is
what you are doing going to accomplish this goal(s)?</div>
<div>I don't understand. Are you hoping to use logic and make people
say to themselves "Gee, what a logical point, I am not going to follow
Christ Church anymore." Are you hoping that people's faith in the
church will go away because others attack it? That people will say, "I
don't want to belong to a church when my faith is challenged". I think
this only reinforces it and makes the members more likely to be tight
and close. Are you hoping to prevent new members from joining Christ
Church? This might work, unless your advertising of it attracts new
members more quickly than your ability to persuade people not to follow
it. If advertising didn't work, not many business would use it. Every
cult in America has gone up in membership when it hit the news, not
down. How do you plan to counter this fact? Do you have any evidence
that your efforts are hurting the church in numbers or finances?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My point is this: I don't like it at all when religions or
others do things to preach hatred or discrimination against others in
society. I think it wrong. I have fought against the Aryan Nations in
Hayden when I lived there for 8 years. I reported the members of the UI
Student Government when they burnt the Gay/Straight Alliance Flag when
I was in the student Senate. I was Vice President of the Human Equality
Club at North Idaho College, and a member of Northwest Coalition
Against Malicious Harassment that had a great deal to with the hiring
of Morris Dees and the lawsuit that brought down the Aryan Nation
Compound that was one mile, by flight of bird, behind my house. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think their are better ways of going against Christ Church
that are more effective. I would do what we did. We raised money by
taking pledges of members of the community for every mile that the
Aryan Nations marched downtown. We than used the money to advance Human
Rights in the area. One year alone we made $45,000. We also held
competing events with the Aryan Nations. That is, whenever they had an
event, we had a human rights event at the same time in another location
out of view of theirs. We would always match the crowds they got.</div>
<div>I would do the same thing. Have Human Rights events at the same
time as them. If they put a coffee stand and give out Chocolate Chip
cookies, set up a Coffee Stand too, and give out three kinds of
cookies. For money, I would take pledges from the community to give
money for every minute that Mr. Wilson talks, then use that money to
promote something positive, like money to save the homeless shelter.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Otherwise, I must state honestly, as a Liberal, and someone
whose candidacy for Student Government was heavy backed by the UI
Socialist Party Club, I think you are doing more harm to the community
than helping it and illustrating the other side of discrimination and
intolerance. I would like to ask you to please stop attacking religion.
Challenging ideas is GREAT. Attacking people for their faith, no matter
how wrong, twisted, or misdirected, I think is unfair and undemocratic.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I don't suppose that this email will make me very popular with
members of Not on the Palouse or Christ Church. Nonetheless, I think it
is important to express my concern of two small but growing and
opposing factions that are dividing our community. I really don't like
to see it and it makes me very sad raises concerns.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thank You and Take Care,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan J Arnold</div>
<div> </div>
</blockquote>
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