[Vision2020] Wayne Fox and THansen are laughable

Rev. Douglas Creeps_Church@moscow.com
Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:28:54 -0700


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Drew, et al,

Unfortunately, your investigation into my views appears to be as slipshod as
your analysis of the news article and your defense of the unethical conduct of
the Logos School Mock Trial team.

First of all, even the most casual but marginally competent inquiry would reveal
that I am certainly not a Christian within the religious meaning of the word.

Second, you are correct that I am "prejudiced" against Logos and the cult of
which it is a part; I am "prejudiced"  [read: "intolerant"]  against all
organizations which are blatantly sexist, homophobic, neo-confederate,
anti-secular, arrogantly dishonest, and/or etc.

Third, you spuriously argue that people are not qualified to speak of an event
which they did not attend.  I haven't attended the war in Iraq, so I am not
qualified to speak about it?  Most of us get news from media sources, all of
which are not always 100% accurate, but in my experience the Statesman does a
reasonable job.  Further I do not recall saying you were ignorant -- I did say
or insinuate that you were inexperienced -- a statement, given you are a high
school student most likely without much real court experience, that is hardly
debatable.  I am sorry if such a characterization offends you.

Further on point three above, the Statesman article at issue was posted on
Vision 2020 by Dale Courtney, a member of the cult of which Logos is a part.  If
there were inaccuracies in the story, Mr. Courtney, a literate and intelligent
person, would have pointed them out or excised them.  [Notice that there has
been no denial issued by Logos School that the telling statements from the news
article are inaccurate.  There is no evidence so far available to me that Logos
asked the Statesman for a correction or retraction.  Certainly none has
appeared.]

Fourth, If you wish to be a successful attorney and argue your case effectively
to an experienced judge, you must learn to address the issues directly, not
sashay around them as the cult leaders whose school you are attempting to defend
 generally do:  The issue:

>From the news article:

"Asking a witness a question knowing the judge will rule it stricken, but
getting it before the jury at least once.  The Logos team did that a few times."



The Logos team, therefore, intentionally, willfully, knowingly, and repeatedly
violated the Rules of Evidence.  That is called cheating (dishonesty).  Such
behavior decreases the chances of a fair trail.  Therefore, such behavior is
egregiously antithetical to achieving justice.



The behavior of the Logos team in the mock trial, therefore, was no less
unethical, dishonest, and prejudicial in principle than the conduct of the
prosecutor in the murder case example given in a previous posting in this
thread.  Such conduct perverts the ends of justice by subverting a fair trial.
It is conduct to be condemned, not lauded, cheered, boasted about, ignored, or
excused.  It is certainly not behavior that the historical Jesus would condone.



Which leads to:  For Palouse area residents, the real subtext of the news
article at issue is "Send your children to Logos.  We'll teach them how to
prevail by cheating and dishonesty if necessary."



Fifth, the following questions are obviously outside the issues we are debating
but are a matter of some interest to many of us.  Perhaps you might be kind and
courageous enough to give curious Vision 2020 readers detailed information:



How did you learn about this controversy in the first place?  Did someone
connected with Logos communicate with you?  If so, who?  What did they say?  Did
they ask you to join Vision 2020 specially so that you could attempt to defend
Logos?  Did they make or continue to make suggestions about your attempted
defense?  If so, who and what were their suggestions and comments about this
controversy?  If their communications were by email, perhaps so that their
comments and suggestions can be evaluated fairly by all, you could post those
emails.  You can tell by my posts that I am being completely candid.  Perhaps
you can do the same.



If you choose to respond to this post in a manner fitting to a future ethical
attorney, please fulfill the following not reasonable requests:



1. Address the issue at stake directly:  Do you believe that intentionally,
willfully, knowingly, and repeatedly violating the Rules of Evidence and other
court rules is unethical conduct?



Repeat:



"Asking a witness a question knowing the judge will rule it stricken, but
getting it before the jury at least once.  The Logos team did that a few times."



If you do not believe such conduct is unethical, please justify such a position.



Please directly and clearly address this specific issue of legal ethics whether
you believe the Statesman article was inaccurate or not.  You may want to review
the murder case example in a previous posting before responding.



2.  Since you are claiming that the Statesman article is incorrect, please
present evidence from an uninvolved, experienced, trusted observer that the
Statesman article was inaccurate about the particulars (two quotes) which form
the basis of the criticism of Logos.  Simply saying you were there is not going
to be very persuasive [or that the court said nothing -- the court will
generally say nothing absent an objection and a request for an assignment of
prejudicial misconduct from an opposition attorney].  The presumably neutral,
experienced news reporter Patrick Orr was there also.



3.  Please respond openly and candidly in detail to item five above.  If you
choose not to respond to item five above, please understand that such a refusal
will most likely fatally contaminate all the rest of your rhetoric in the view
of many Vision 2020 readers.



A friendly suggestion:  So that all Vision 2020 readers are motivated to read
your postings, you might consider using journalistic paragraphing which usually
improves readability.



Art Deco  (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com










----- Original Message ----- 
From: <NoMoreWalking4Me@aol.com>
To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:16 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Wayne Fox and THansen are laughable


| Please, esteemed gentlemen, tell me why I would choose to stand up for a
school I lost to - write in a forum which involves a city I do not live in - and
tell you both that you're barking mad if I do not believe that you both are
well, lightly put, 'mistaken' with your opinions about the Mock Trial state
finals.  You so nobly noted that the news reporter at the scene was indeed a man
of experience, and I was thus, just an ignorant high school student.  But, my
friends, you so missed the fact that he used his statements as a compliment,
showing, that the Logos School (as well as mine, Bishop Kelly), were persuasive
speakers, and not lousy, cheating, dirty, lying, prejudicial, sons-of-a-guns.
You both have failed to point out the part of the article where it says anything
regarding that Logos School was indeed cheating, or bastardizing the legal
system.  Read between the lines some more boys, have your fun.   And Wayne Fox,
I've looked into you some.  You are bias against Log!
|  os School, and being a man whom says he stands for 'true' Christian values,
wouldn't you be hypocrytical by saying that Logos School is 'prejudicial' in a
court case, if you yourself, are prejudiced against them, and their performances
that you never saw?
| Cheers,Drew Simon
| ps - Do you both also believe everything Michael Moore writes?
|
| _____________________________________________________
|  List services made available by First Step Internet,
|  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
|                http://www.fsr.net
|           mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
| ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
|
|

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<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Drew, et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Unfortunately, your investigation into my views =
appears to be=20
as slipshod as your analysis of the news article and your defense of the =

unethical conduct of the Logos School Mock Trial team.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>First of all, even the most casual but marginally =
competent=20
inquiry would reveal that I am certainly not a Christian&nbsp;within=20
the&nbsp;religious meaning of the word.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Second, you are correct that I am "prejudiced" =
against Logos=20
and the cult of which it is a part; I am "prejudiced"&nbsp; [read: =
"intolerant"]=20
&nbsp;against all organizations which are blatantly sexist, homophobic,=20
neo-confederate, anti-secular, arrogantly dishonest, and/or =
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Third, you&nbsp;spuriously argue&nbsp;that people =
are not=20
qualified to speak of an event which they did not attend.&nbsp; I =
haven't=20
attended the war in Iraq, so I am not qualified to&nbsp;speak about=20
it?&nbsp;&nbsp;Most of us&nbsp;get news from media sources, all of which =
are not=20
always 100% accurate, but in my experience the <EM>Statesman</EM> does a =

reasonable job.&nbsp; Further I do not recall saying you were ignorant =
-- I did=20
say or insinuate that you were inexperienced -- a statement, =
given&nbsp;you are=20
a high school student most likely without much real court experience,=20
that&nbsp;is hardly debatable.&nbsp; I am sorry if such a =
characterization=20
offends you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Further on point three above, the <EM>Statesman</EM> =
article=20
at issue was posted on Vision 2020 by Dale Courtney, a member of the =
cult of=20
which Logos is a part.&nbsp; If there were inaccuracies in the story, =
Mr.=20
Courtney, a literate and intelligent person,&nbsp;would have pointed =
them out or=20
excised them.&nbsp; [Notice that there has been no denial issued by =
Logos School=20
that the&nbsp;telling statements from the news article&nbsp;are=20
inaccurate.&nbsp; There is no evidence so far available to me that Logos =
asked=20
the <EM>Statesman</EM> for a correction or retraction.&nbsp; Certainly =
none has=20
appeared.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Fourth, If you wish to be a successful&nbsp;attorney =
and argue=20
your case effectively to an experienced judge, you must learn to address =
the=20
issues directly, not sashay around them as the cult leaders whose school =
you are=20
attempting to defend generally do:&nbsp; The issue:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>From the news article:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4>"Asking a witness a=20
question <STRONG><EM><U>knowing the judge will rule it=20
stricken</U></EM></STRONG>, but getting it before the jury at least =
once. <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>The Logos team did that a few=20
times."</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4>The =
Logos team,=20
therefore, intentionally, willfully, knowingly, and repeatedly violated =
the=20
Rules of Evidence.&nbsp; That is called cheating (dishonesty).&nbsp; =
Such=20
behavior decreases the chances of a fair trail.&nbsp; Therefore, such =
behavior=20
is egregiously antithetical to achieving justice.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4>The =
behavior of the=20
Logos team in the mock trial, therefore,&nbsp;was no less unethical, =
dishonest,=20
and prejudicial <STRONG><U><EM>in principle</EM></U></STRONG> than the =
conduct=20
of the prosecutor in the murder case example given in a previous posting =
in this=20
thread.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Such conduct =
perverts the=20
ends of justice by subverting a fair trial.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It is conduct to be condemned, =
not=20
lauded, cheered, boasted about, ignored, or excused.&nbsp; It is =
certainly not=20
behavior that the historical Jesus would condone.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4>Which =
leads=20
to:&nbsp; <FONT size=3D4>For Palouse area residents, the real subtext of =
the news=20
article at issue is <STRONG>"Send your children to Logos.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>We'll teach them how to =
prevail by=20
cheating and dishonesty if necessary."</STRONG></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4><FONT=20
size=3D4><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4><FONT =
size=3D4>Fifth,=20
the following&nbsp;questions are&nbsp;obviously outside the issues we =
are=20
debating but&nbsp;are a matter of some&nbsp;interest to&nbsp;many of =
us.&nbsp;=20
Perhaps you might be kind and courageous enough to give curious Vision =
2020=20
readers <STRONG>detailed</STRONG> information:&nbsp; </FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4><FONT=20
size=3D4></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4><FONT =
size=3D4>How did=20
you learn about this controversy in the first place?&nbsp; Did someone =
connected=20
with Logos communicate with you?&nbsp; If so, who?&nbsp; What did they=20
say?&nbsp; Did they ask you to join Vision 2020 specially so that you =
could=20
attempt to defend Logos?&nbsp; Did they make or continue to make =
suggestions=20
about your attempted defense?&nbsp; If so, who and what were their =
suggestions=20
and comments about this controversy?&nbsp; If their communications were =
by=20
email, perhaps so that their comments and suggestions&nbsp;can be =
evaluated=20
fairly by all, you could post those emails.&nbsp; You can tell by my =
posts that=20
I am being completely candid.&nbsp; Perhaps you can do the=20
same.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4>If you =
choose to=20
respond to this post in a manner fitting to a future ethical attorney,=20
please&nbsp;fulfill the following not reasonable requests:</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4>1. =
Address the issue=20
at stake directly:&nbsp;&nbsp;Do you believe that&nbsp;intentionally, =
willfully,=20
knowingly, and repeatedly violating the Rules of Evidence and other =
court rules=20
is unethical conduct? </FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4>Repeat:</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT=20
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P><FONT size=3D4>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4>"Asking a witness a=20
question <STRONG><EM><U>knowing the judge will rule it=20
stricken</U></EM></STRONG>, but getting it before the jury at least =
once. <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>The Logos team did that a few=20
times."</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">If you do not believe =
such=20
conduct is unethical, please justify such a position.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Please&nbsp;directly =
and clearly=20
address this specific issue of legal ethics <STRONG>whether you believe =
the=20
<EM>Statesman</EM> article was inaccurate or not</STRONG>.&nbsp; You may =
want to=20
review the murder case example in a previous posting before=20
responding.</P></FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4>2.&nbsp; Since you=20
are claiming that the <EM>Statesman</EM> article is incorrect, please =
present=20
evidence from an uninvolved, experienced, trusted observer that the=20
<EM>Statesman</EM> article was inaccurate about the particulars (two =
quotes)=20
which form the basis of the criticism of Logos.&nbsp; Simply saying you =
were=20
there is not going to be very persuasive [or that the court said nothing =
-- the=20
court will generally say nothing absent an objection and a request for =
an=20
assignment of prejudicial misconduct from an opposition attorney].&nbsp; =
The=20
presumably neutral, experienced news reporter Patrick Orr&nbsp;was there =

also.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4>3.&nbsp; Please=20
respond openly and candidly in detail to item five above.&nbsp; If you =
choose=20
not to respond to&nbsp;item five above, please understand that such a =
refusal=20
will most likely fatally contaminate all the rest of your rhetoric in =
the view=20
of many Vision 2020 readers.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D4>A =
friendly=20
suggestion:&nbsp; So that all Vision 2020 readers are motivated to read =
your=20
postings, you might consider using journalistic paragraphing =
which&nbsp;usually=20
improves readability.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Art Deco&nbsp; (Wayne =
Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT =
size=3D4>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><?xml:namespace =
prefix =3D o ns =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT=20
size=3D4>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>From: &lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:NoMoreWalking4Me@aol.com"><FONT=20
size=3D4>NoMoreWalking4Me@aol.com</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D4>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>To: &lt;</FONT><A =
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT=20
size=3D4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D4>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:16 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Subject: [Vision2020] Wayne Fox and THansen are=20
laughable</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D4>| Please, esteemed =
gentlemen,=20
tell me why I would choose to stand up for a school I lost to - write in =
a forum=20
which involves a city I do not live in - and tell you both that you're =
barking=20
mad if I do not believe that you both are well, lightly put, 'mistaken' =
with=20
your opinions about the Mock Trial state finals.&nbsp; You so nobly =
noted that=20
the news reporter at the scene was indeed a man of experience, and I was =
thus,=20
just an ignorant high school student.&nbsp; But, my friends, you so =
missed the=20
fact that he used his statements as a compliment, showing, that the =
Logos School=20
(as well as mine, Bishop Kelly), were persuasive speakers, and not =
lousy,=20
cheating, dirty, lying, prejudicial, sons-of-a-guns.&nbsp; You both have =
failed=20
to point out the part of the article where it says anything regarding =
that Logos=20
School was indeed cheating, or bastardizing the legal system.&nbsp; Read =
between=20
the lines some more boys, have your fun.&nbsp;&nbsp; And Wayne Fox, I've =
looked=20
into you some.&nbsp; You are bias against Log!<BR>| &nbsp;os School, and =
being a=20
man whom says he stands for 'true' Christian values, wouldn't you be=20
hypocrytical by saying that Logos School is 'prejudicial' in a court =
case, if=20
you yourself, are prejudiced against them, and their performances that =
you never=20
saw?<BR>| Cheers,Drew Simon<BR>| ps - Do you both also believe =
everything=20
Michael Moore writes?<BR>| <BR>|=20
_____________________________________________________<BR>| &nbsp;List =
services=20
made available by First Step Internet, <BR>| &nbsp;serving the =
communities of=20
the Palouse since 1994.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>|=20
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nbsp;&nbsp;=20
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p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT=20
size=3D4>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D4>|=20
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