[Vision2020] Score one for the KKK!
Tim Lohrmann
timlohr@yahoo.com
Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:27:03 -0700 (PDT)
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Tom,
I disagree.
The key word is actually "value." That's the whole reason for the suit.
The employee is being required to state he "values" something his religious faith regards as sinful. That's illegal unless the employer can show that not doing so presents an "undue hardship." It couldn't--so it has to follow the law.
If the word "respect" was the key there wouldn't have been a lawsuit.
The employee already agreed to show "respect" by not engaging in any discriminatory or harassing behavior.
By the way---what's "homophobic" about debating the applicability of Civil Rights Law?
TL
Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
The key word, ladies and gentlemen, is "respect", as in "respect the differences". AT&T in no way requires its employees to adopt (or even pay tribute to) the "differences of others".
This place is developing a slightly homophobic smell.
Take care,
Tom "free to be you and me" Hansen
Not On The Palouse, NOT EVER
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Paul Duffau
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 10:57 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Score one for the KKK!
Donovan,
A few questions for you...
At 07:30 PM 4/10/04 -0700, you wrote:
1) Why target Homosexuals? Why not Jews, they have different lifestyles that is objectionable to Christians? Or how about Rapists, or Pedophiles, or Murderers, or Thieves? He went right for Gay people directly. Would not his argument from his interpretation carry the same weight for Jews? If so, why not use that instead, I think you know the answer to that. It is more expectable to target gays and lesbians than Jews.
What lifestyle aspect of judaism would Christians find objectionable? Are the rapists, pedophiles, murderers, or thieves addressed in the Old Testament as well as the New? What about current law? What treatment do they receive in each?
2) Second, the company is not asking for acceptance of "behavior" just orientation. Lifestyle is not one specific behavior and can include and exclude certain behaviors and still be considered the same lifestyle.
Please explain how it is possible to be gay without a behavioral difference. Can an individual disagree with an orientation but still provide equality of service?
3) Third, if the man is a "Christian" because he follows "Christ", then let him show exactly when "Christ" spoke against, or denied Gays "respect and value."
Please indicate where the Christ spoke in favor of same.
4) If he was a Christian, why would he not gladly quit his job and let Christ take care of him instead of seeking earthly materialistic goods in return for his "Values". Even Judas gave the money back.
Because other, earthly alternatives are currently provided. Please explain the significance of the the Judas analogy - it's my slow day and I lost you in the wilderness.
5) Why would anyone want to work for a company that they do not agree with?
Why not - bills still need to be paid. Many people are enormously dissatisfied with their work or employer yet continue to stay at their current job. Should they forfeit their responsibilities to family and quit?
6) Why should a company have to keep employees that will not value the customer and just not discriminate against them. When I go into a store, I don't want to be just not discriminated against, I want to be a "valued customer". If a business does not value me then I will go someplace else. If this effect is multiplied, that business will face a loss, and go out of business. This is an unbearable burden for a business.
If the employee does not discriminate against you, how will you know that they do not value you? Are you psychic? Using personal experiences: 1) demonstrate how in your life you have provided discriminatory service to a person or group on the basis or in spite of disagreement with some aspect of their behavior; or 2) Please explain how you managed to provide said service despite your beliefs and why this individual could not emulate your example.
This is just a BS way of twisting words to stop gays and lesbians from achieving equality in workplace and marketplace. PERIOD.
Please expand on how words have been twisted in this case. Please define "equality in the workplace and marketplace". Along the same vein, please explain the KKK reference since I did not see it in the original article. (Not a defence of the KKK or any other racist entity!!!!!)
Respectfully,
Donovan J Arnold
Equally Respectfully,
Paul Duffau
ps. I thought that I would ignore this thread as silly since the courts have presented a fait accompli (subject to review by higher courts) but it seems that someone is lonely and needs attention so I thought I might as well ask a few questions and maybe learn a few things as well as relieve some boredom.
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<DIV>Tom,</DIV>
<DIV> I disagree.</DIV>
<DIV> The key word is actually "value." That's the whole reason for the suit.</DIV>
<DIV> The employee is being required to state he "values" something his religious faith regards as sinful. That's illegal unless the employer can show that not doing so presents an "undue hardship." It couldn't--so it has to follow the law.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> If the word "respect" was the key there wouldn't have been a lawsuit.</DIV>
<DIV> The employee already agreed to show "respect" by not engaging in any discriminatory or harassing behavior.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> By the way---what's "homophobic" about debating the applicability of Civil Rights Law?</DIV>
<DIV> TL<BR><BR><B><I>Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>The key word, ladies and gentlemen, is "respect", as in "respect the differences". AT&T in no way requires its employees to adopt (or even pay tribute to) the "differences of others".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>This place is developing a slightly homophobic smell.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Take care,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Tom "free to be you and me" Hansen</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Not On The Palouse, NOT EVER</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=332355512-11042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Paul Duffau<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 10, 2004 10:57 PM<BR><B>To:</B> vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Score one for the KKK!<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Donovan,<BR><BR>A few questions for you...<BR>At 07:30 PM 4/10/04 -0700, you wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">1) Why target Homosexuals? Why not Jews, they have different lifestyles that is objectionable to Christians? Or how about Rapists, or Pedophiles, or Murderers, or Thieves? He went right for Gay people directly. Would not his argument from his interpretation carry the same weight for Jews? If so, why not use that instead, I think you know the answer to that. It is more expectable to target gays and lesbians than Jews.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What <B><I>lifestyle</B> </I>aspect of judaism would Christians find objectionable? Are the rapists, pedophiles, murderers, or thieves addressed in the Old Testament as well as the New? What about current law? What treatment do they receive in each? <BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">2) Second, the company is not asking for acceptance of "behavior" just orientation. Lifestyle is not one specific behavior and can include and exclude certain behaviors and still be considered the same lifestyle.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Please explain how it is possible to be gay without a behavioral difference. Can an individual disagree with an orientation but still provide equality of service?<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">3) Third, if the man is a "Christian" because he follows "Christ", then let him show exactly when "Christ" spoke against, or denied Gays "respect and value."</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Please indicate where the Christ spoke in favor of same.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">4) If he was a Christian, why would he not gladly quit his job and let Christ take care of him instead of seeking earthly materialistic goods in return for his "Values". Even Judas gave the money back.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because other, earthly alternatives are currently provided. Please explain the significance of the the Judas analogy - it's my slow day and I lost you in the wilderness.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">5) Why would anyone want to work for a company that they do not agree with?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Why not - bills still need to be paid. Many people are enormously dissatisfied with their work or employer yet continue to stay at their current job. Should they forfeit their responsibilities to family and quit?<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">6) Why should a company have to keep employees that will not value the customer and just not discriminate against them. When I go into a store, I don't want to be just not discriminated against, I want to be a "valued customer". If a business does not value me then I will go someplace else. If this effect is multiplied, that business will face a loss, and go out of business. This is an unbearable burden for a business.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If the employee does not discriminate against you, how will you know that they do not value you? Are you psychic? Using personal experiences: 1) demonstrate how in your life you have provided discriminatory service to a person or group on the basis or in spite of disagreement with some aspect of their behavior; or 2) Please explain how you managed to provide said service despite your beliefs and why this individual could not emulate your example.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">This is just a BS way of twisting words to stop gays and lesbians from achieving equality in workplace and marketplace. PERIOD.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Please expand on how words have been twisted in this case. Please define "equality in the workplace and marketplace". Along the same vein, please explain the KKK reference since I did not see it in the original article. (Not a defence of the KKK or any other racist entity!!!!!)<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Respectfully,<BR><BR>Donovan J Arnold</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Equally Respectfully,<BR><BR>Paul Duffau<BR><BR>ps. I thought that I would ignore this thread as silly since the courts have presented a <I>fait accompli (</I>subject to review by higher courts) but it seems that someone is lonely and needs attention so I thought I might as well ask a few questions and maybe learn a few things as well as relieve some boredom. </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><p><hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Tax Center - <a href="http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">File online by April 15th</a>
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