[Vision2020] Re: Response to Joshua

Donovan Arnold donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Wed, 12 Nov 2003 04:38:21 -0800


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<P>Josh,</P>
<P>Where do you get your&nbsp;history from? You complain about money going to education and feeding the poor? We spend more on&nbsp;weapons of destruction. Why don't you complain about this?</P></DIV>
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<P>The exact reason that government stepped in to take over feeding the poor is because the churches were NOT doing enough. The US Government does more for the poor and disadvantaged then churches ever did or will do. You got it backwards, the church doesn't do it better. Show me the evidence for this? You cannot, because it only exists in your head, not in reality.</P>
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<P>If you take all the churches in the&nbsp;country, they do not give as much as the US Government. And no it is not because of taxes. Churches still give more now than they did before the government starting chipping in. People are way better off with a public educational system and the&nbsp;government running programs to help the disadvantaged. Check your facts and your history.</P>
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<P>You are also wrong about the government and what it does. The government does three things; 1) It protects from foreign invasion 2) Maintains order of society, and 3) Provides government services. These are&nbsp;done by every government, albeit some better than others.</P>
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<P>The fact that you say nothing about $500 Billion spend on bombs and missiles, the fact that you say nothing about spending over $100 Billion on fighting a country for not handing over non-existent weapons of mass destruction, the fact that you say nothing about the billions of dollars spend on corporate welfare and subsidizes for tobacco industries,&nbsp;the fact that you say nothing about the $8 Trillion deficit that was built on tax breaks for the rich and more military spending,&nbsp;but whine relentlessly about the $100 billion spent on education and billions spend on&nbsp;medical care and food tells me that if Logos is anything reflective of the values you hold, it is anything but&nbsp;a Christian school. </P>
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<P>It&nbsp;sounds more like to me it is concerned about saving a buck at the expense of few people to advance the&nbsp;already better off.</P>
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<P>Is your TV not big enough?&nbsp;What is it with you to condemn the feeding of poor and proclaiming Christ in the same breath?</P>
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<P>You should ask for $100 billion to be spent only on war and $500 billion spent on education, food, and medical care.</P>
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<P>Would Christ condemn the government feeding the poor? Would he sanction subsidizing the rich? Would he sanction&nbsp;spending $500 billion on war?</P>
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<P>What Would Jesus Do? WWJD? Could you imagine Christ&nbsp;saying we should cut funding for public education? Would you see Christ pulling the level on an electric chair? Would you see Christ backing corporate welfare and subsidizes for tobacco? I don't think you could, that is why you know you are incorrect.</P>
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<P>Donovan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>
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<P>&nbsp;</P>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: Joshua Nieuwsma <JOSHUAHENDRIK@YAHOO.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: Jim Meyer <M1E2Y3E4@MOSCOW.COM>, vision <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Response to Joshua 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:56:18 -0800 (PST) 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Mr. Meyer, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;There were some classic liberal points in this email. Let's just highlight a few. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;1) "the sheltered and privileged life" mantra along with the suggestion of jealousy of the government school programs. No, I beg to differ with you analysis of my life, and I think I have a right to do so. If my life was sheltered, I am thankful. I don't want to see the government stepping in to do any of these things. It wouldn't even be doing them now if it wasn't for the Church setting the standard of caring for one another back in the late Roman times. The Church through the Christian community ought to still be providing such services (clothing, food, etc.). And within our community, we do. We give to each other all the time, though as we mature we will do so more and more. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;2) the "elite" mantra. Kids who aren't cared for are in a sad state. And if the teachers and faculty and fellow students want to give of their plenty to these children, great. Well and good. But avoid the extra and clearly unnecessary cost of the "administration and staff" that always grows up whenever it is a government program. And Logos students aren't the Elite. Our parents worked very hard to put us there, much harder than they would have had to work to put us through the government schools, since that's mainly paid for anyhow. If anything, Logos parents are the underprivileged. They are forced, by the bad policies and bad teaching at the government schools, to fund two schools at once. Government schools through their taxes, and Logos through what is left. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;3) the these kids have real disabilities mantra. the young man that I was talking about was truly disabled, and it was visible from a great distance. He had very little motor control, and serious difficulty talking and using his eyes. Severe mental disabilities can be dealt with, so can severe physical disabilities. A government program isn't needed for those either. Why do you people keep calling upon the government to save you? 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;I don't call you a liar, but I question whether this student you talk of truly was asked to leave merely because she was slower than the rest. As a 7 year student at Logos, I know for a fact that is not their attitude nor would they dismiss a student merely for being a bit slow. She would have to be so slow as to require a special tutor, and the only reason they would ask her to leave then is due to lack of money to support a special tutor program, not due to any desire to not teach her. Logos has no extra money, you know. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;I'll accept your criticism of my "I want my money back" statement, and I"ll modify the statement. Since 10% of my $1000 went to the poorer students directly, I'll ask for $900 back. That's just going to the administration. Fair enough? 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;You know what makes kids throwaways? It's not the fact that they didn't get enough tax money, I can tell you that. It's the fact that the system that they were brought up in tried to teach them things apart from God. It tried to apply standards without teaching about the Absolute Standard of living. It tried to discipline without explaining why. And then it sent the kid through social programs designed to "help" the kid in counseling sessions where the kid was not taught the difference between right and wrong but was told to follow his inner self. So he did, and ended back up in jail. If programs are the only things standing between the kid and jail, then you've got a whole set of problems on your hands. That is one of the sorriest things I've ever heard. The idea that a government program is so essential that it can't be scrapped without people going to jail. All the more reason to scrap it, so that we can get these people to stop relying on the government fo!
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; nd that 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; isn't meanhearted, that is seeking to restore the proper balance of things. You keep down this road, you end up like Rome. Free corn, free housing, and mob rule. Then in come the armies, and you end up with emperors elected by their favorite soldiers. That's about 200 years of history (from Julius Caesar on through Marcus Aurelius) in a nutshell. America is sort of doing a time-crunch of the Roman Empire. Instead of taking 500 years to become one, we're an empire in 200. And we already look like Rome around the birth of Christ. So if we keep up this compressed pattern, our empire will only last another 70 years or so. Government was ordained to keep order, to remind people of the consequences of doing wrong. It was never ordained for the purpose of providing food, shelter, clothing, schooling, or anything like that. When it tries, it in the end fails, and ends up with a huge prison-filled mess. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Mr. Meyer, you argue that Logos is not a Christian school because Logos teachers don't give. Why don't you just go and ask them what they give to, before judging them, eh? I think you'd find 1) if they do give, it's a miracle because they live on pittance salaries already (as of a couple years ago, the average teacher was running on a $20,000 salary, and most of these teachers had large families) 2) that Logos, despite the financial straits, is a generous school and gives often of the little they have. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;My behavior has in no way been biblically wrong. I do not call for the cesession of giving. Or for the denial of food for the poor. I call for it to be given by the right community. That community is the Church. The Church started this whole discussion anyhow, way back in the 1st century. Before the Church there weren't hospitals. Before the Church life was wretched in the cities. Before the Church nobody cared for the poor. Has the Church made mistakes throughout history? Yes, and forgetting her duty to take care of the poor has been one of them. Let's do a brief thought study. Assume there are 180 million people who would profess to be a Christian (i.e. asked "are you a Christian?"). And assume that about half of those have jobs. And that if you average out their jobs, it is about the national average salary of around $33000 a year. If each of these 90 million Christians tithed 10% as God requires, the Church would have $3300*90 million, or $297 Billion per !
 year. Think of ! 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; how much 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; human aid could be offered with that kind of budget. How much clothing would that buy? how much food? Now bring it down to the local level and distribute it wisely. That is what the Church ought to be doing. You want the government to do it? Expect high costs, high taxes, and low quality turnouts. You want the Church of Christ to do it? It will be done well, because God will bless it. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Thank you for the discussion. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;sincerely, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Joshua Nieuwsma 
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