[Vision2020] Divisivness Must Stop (2)

David Douglas ddouglas@pacsim.com
Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:11:26 -0500


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Jim, and Visionaries:

Several questions and comments suggest themselves from your letter:


My point is that the entire group to needs to make a choice about whether to
support views that are entirely offensive to many in the greater community
of Moscow.

"Needs"?  Kind of presumes they haven't chosen or don't know what is going
on.  Are you able to judge the thoughts and motives of the heart?


I think we can all get along fine if reason prevails and the "small but
vocal part of the group" does not. Note that I am not suggesting boycotts or
other forms of wall building. I merely ask that reasonable people prevail.

In what ways are we not getting along besides the disagreements on this
forum, the bakeries which are vandalized, and the alacrity with which the
word "Nazi" is bandied about.  (Haven't heard it lately, though.  I hope we
are through with that one, and not merely overdue).

Ah, yes, the Reasonable People.  You speak "ex cathedra" regarding what is
"reasonable".  "We" are.  "They" are not. You are simply self-conferring
reasonability.


You cannot deny that use of the word is divisive.

Possibly it is divisive; some things are, unavoidably. But it is also
descriptive, accurate, and fair, though perhaps not exhaustive.  The word
"public" is also descriptive, but certainly not exhaustive and in some ways
more benign than it has a right to be.  Naming and describing are important.
After all the word "divisive" is itself pejorative.  Are you being clinical
or hurtful? Whatever...you yourself are naming, and thus framing, the
argument on your terms.  But just as reasonable people don't see tolerance
as a universally good, they do not see divisiveness as universally bad.  So,
I'm afraid you will find, unreasonably, some people will not accept the
terms of your arguments.  You may not accept or believe the way "gov't
schools" frames the argument, but you can't avoid doing the same thing
yourself.  Better to defend your term, and refute the ones you don't buy
than simply complain about its effect.  More on this below.



....but you cannot deny that publicly writing or saying words that a large
proportion of the population will take to be racist is also divisive and
should be repugnant to those on both sides of the issue.

Does truth have *anything* to do with this?  If that sort of thinking
prevailed, we'd still still be constructing epicycles in our geocentric
universe.  ("A large portion of the population" are having problems with
this earth-going-around-the-sun thing....best to ease up on that).  The
author has condemned racism any number of times and written about the
perniciousness of racism and slavery on this forum. Yet you are concerned
with the "large portion of the population" who, apparently, are just liable
to misunderstand anything he writes.  Further this is a cause for certain
topics to be off limits.  Let's narrow the focus:  do you disbelieve the
author's statements?  If so, focus on that, and give proof as to why his
words aren't true.  If not, I suggest empowering that "large portion of
population" even at the risk of misunderstanding.

[By the way, where is your data, beyond the anecdotal, on this "large
portion of the population"]
--

.....perhaps help limit an increasingly destructive polarization in the
community
H
How is this polarization manifesting itself?  Where is the destruction?
("hardening the arteries of those we disagree with, one cinnamon roll at a
time")? How is it increasing?  Beyond bakeries being vandalized, I mean.

Divisiveness can be, practically speaking, a pejorative reference to anyone
who does not roll over for the spirit of the age.  "Our spirit, our
age.....your divisiveness."  Divisiveness can be right or wrong, just like
tolerance, opposition, war, and love.  You want divisive? Go Google William
Wilberforce.


Cheers,

David Douglas

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<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT color=3D#000080>Jim, and =

Visionaries:</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT color=3D#000080>Several =
questions=20
and comments suggest themselves from =
your&nbsp;letter:</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My =
point is that=20
the&nbsp;entire group to needs to make a choice about whether to=20
support&nbsp;views that are entirely offensive to many in the greater =
community=20
of&nbsp;Moscow.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><SPAN =
class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080><EM>"Needs"?&nbsp; Kind of presumes they haven't =
chosen&nbsp;or=20
don't know what is going on.&nbsp; Are you able to judge the thoughts =
and=20
motives of the heart?</EM></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><SPAN =
class=3D745572319-11112003><EM><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></EM></SPAN></SPAN><EM><SPAN =
class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think we can =
all get along=20
fine if reason prevails and the "small but vocal part of the group" does =
not.=20
Note that </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am not suggesting =
boycotts or other=20
forms of wall building. I merely ask that reasonable=20
people&nbsp;prevail.</FONT></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003>In what =
ways are we=20
not getting along besides the disagreements on this forum, the bakeries =
which=20
are vandalized, and the alacrity with which the word "Nazi" is bandied=20
about.&nbsp; (Haven't heard it lately, though.&nbsp; I hope we are =
through with=20
that one, and not merely overdue).&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003>Ah, yes, =
the=20
Reasonable People.&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></EM><EM><FONT =
color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003>You speak "ex cathedra" regarding what is=20
"reasonable".&nbsp; "We" are.&nbsp; "They" are not.&nbsp;You=20
are&nbsp;simply&nbsp;self-conferring =
reasonability.</SPAN></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003>You =
cannot deny=20
that&nbsp;use of the word is divisive.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003>Possibly =
it is=20
divisive; some things are, unavoidably.&nbsp;But it is also descriptive, =

accurate, and fair, though perhaps not exhaustive.&nbsp; The word =
"public" is=20
also descriptive, but certainly not exhaustive and in some =
ways&nbsp;more benign=20
than it has a right to be.&nbsp; Naming and describing =
are&nbsp;important.&nbsp;=20
After all the word "divisive" is itself pejorative.&nbsp; Are you being =
clinical=20
or hurtful? Whatever...you&nbsp;yourself&nbsp;are naming, and =
thus&nbsp;framing,=20
the argument&nbsp;on your terms.&nbsp; But just as reasonable people =
don't see=20
tolerance as a universally good, they do not see divisiveness=20
as&nbsp;universally bad.&nbsp; So, I'm afraid&nbsp;you will find,=20
unreasonably,&nbsp;some people will not accept the terms of your=20
arguments.&nbsp; You may not accept or believe the way "gov't schools" =
frames=20
the argument, but you can't avoid doing the same thing yourself.&nbsp; =
Better to=20
defend your term, and refute the ones you don't buy than simply complain =
about=20
its effect.&nbsp; More on this below.</SPAN></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D745572319-11112003>....but&nbsp;you=20
cannot deny&nbsp;that publicly writing or saying words&nbsp;that a large =

proportion of the population will take to be&nbsp;racist is also =
divisive and=20
should be repugnant to those on both sides of the =
issue.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003><EM>Does truth have *anything* to do with =
this?&nbsp;=20
If that sort of thinking prevailed, we'd still still be constructing =
epicycles=20
in our geocentric universe.&nbsp; ("A large portion of the population" =
are=20
having problems with this earth-going-around-the-sun thing....best to =
ease up on=20
that).&nbsp; The author has condemned racism any number of times and =
written=20
about the perniciousness of racism and slavery on this forum. Yet you =
are=20
concerned with&nbsp;the "large portion of the population" who,=20
apparently,&nbsp;are just liable&nbsp;to misunderstand anything he =
writes.&nbsp;=20
Further this is a cause&nbsp;for certain topics to be&nbsp;off =
limits.&nbsp;=20
Let's narrow the focus:&nbsp; do you disbelieve the author's =
statements?&nbsp;=20
If&nbsp;so, focus on that, and give proof as to why his words aren't =
true.&nbsp;=20
If not, I suggest&nbsp;empowering that "large portion of =
population"&nbsp;even=20
at the risk of misunderstanding.&nbsp; </EM></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003><EM></EM></SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003><EM>[By the way, where is your data, beyond =
the=20
anecdotal, on this&nbsp;"large portion of the=20
population"]</EM></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT color=3D#ffffff>--</FONT> </P>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003>.....</SPAN>perhaps help limit an =
increasingly=20
destructive polarization in the community</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003><FONT =
color=3D#ffffff>H</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN class=3D745572319-11112003>How is =
this=20
polarization manifesting itself?&nbsp; Where is the&nbsp;destruction?=20
("hardening the arteries of those we disagree with,&nbsp;one cinnamon =
roll at a=20
time")? How is it increasing?&nbsp; Beyond bakeries being vandalized, I=20
mean.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM><EM><FONT =
color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM><EM><FONT =
color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN =
class=3D745572319-11112003>Divisiveness can be,=20
practically speaking, a pejorative reference to anyone who does not roll =
over=20
for the spirit of the age.&nbsp; "Our spirit, our age.....your=20
divisiveness."&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></EM><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003>Divisiveness can be right or wrong, just like =

tolerance, opposition, war, and love.&nbsp; You want divisive? Go Google =
William=20
Wilberforce.</SPAN></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003></SPAN></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20
class=3D745572319-11112003>Cheers,</SPAN></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>David Douglas <BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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