[Vision2020] Deep in the Matrix a Voice is Heard Whispering...

[Ted Moffett]

Doug, et. al.

There are numerous logical and mathematical constructions, "ideas," that we 
do not have any evidence correspond empirically to events in the "physical" 
world.

In computers logic is expressed in the physical world in a manner that gives 
credence to the logical principles validity in terms of operating in the 
physical world, in that the logic embedded in the physical devices of the 
computer as it operates gives us computational results that are logical.  
The logical principles embedded in the computer as it operates must indeed 
follow rules that if broken will result in false computations, whether or 
not you think this is "logical necessity."

There are numerous very clever arguments to refute this view of computers, 
logic and physics, but philosophy and theology are replete with the most 
astonishing fantasies and constructions of the human mind, that do not hold 
up to empirical evidence, but sound very convincing, even logical!

I never suggested logic involves "frictionless, immaterial, eternal 
stuff..." as your phrased it.  You must define what "immaterial" or 
"eternal" means here, though "frictionless" is less vague.   When a computer 
calculates an equation, this event as it happens is not described by any one 
of those three words, yet logic is involved in on/off states, powered by 
wires and electricity, that represent the binary code, which is a very 
exacting logical mathematical process.  There is friction as electricity 
passes through wires and chips, computer chips are made of physical 
materials, silicon, etc. and the computations can take only seconds, they 
are not "eternal."

It appears your rejection of an intermingling of logic and physics in 
computers in a manner that does not destroy logic is the fantasy here!

Or do you mean logic in the Platonic Ideal?  Are logical "ideas" expected to 
be "perfect, eternal and unchanging?"  That they cannot become physical 
without being "destroyed" or rendered "imperfect?"

I will concede I have no proof that the laws of logic are "eternal," that 
they may not suddenly change for some reason either comprehensible or not.  
Nor do I claim to have solved the problems of "Universals and Particulars" 
as it is posed in philosophy.

But to claim we must have proof that the laws of logic are "perfect, eternal 
and unchanging" before we proceed with basing our lives on the empirically 
observed results such laws provide, is an odd expectation for someone who 
may lack such proof for their own beliefs in the "perfect and eternal."

For you to deny that there are very precise principles of LOGIC involved in 
the PHYSICAL operation of computers, by insisting such logical principles 
must involve "frictionless, immaterial, eternal stuff..." is to engage in 
obscurantism.

I rather like Spinoza's arguments that everything that happens is in the 
mind of God!  In his Idealism is a simplicity that rids us of the messy 
dualities of physical vs. logical or physical vs immaterial or the physical 
vs. the ideal, dualities which present riddles no one seems able to totally 
solve.

But I don't think his views support the Trinity.

See you in the Matrix!

Ted

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Doug Jones" <credenda@moscow.com>
>To: "'Vision 20/20'" <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 7:14 AM
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Deep in the Matrix a Voice is Heard Whispering...
>
>
> > Ted makes a simple mistake:
> >
> > > There is no doubt that computers function according to logical and
> > > mathematical rules that are a part of the tradition of logic that
> > Wayne Fox
> > > references in his arguments about logic, evidence and truth.
> > >
> >
> > I hate to break this to you, Ted, but there is no logical necessity
> > within your computer or mine, only physical necessity. If you have some
> > logical necessity in yours, please drop some in an envelope to me, and
> > we together can become billionaires overnight. Dell, HP, Intel would
> > fall over themselves for some of that frictionless, eternal, immaterial
> > stuff that loads the "law of noncontradiction" and Wayne's fantasy
> > world. Logic is intended to deal with those relations that physics
> > can't. You've actually eliminated traditional logic by reducing it to
> > physics. I have no beef with that, but you've then abandoned logic and
> > the law of noncontradiction, which goes against your and Wayne's hope.
> >
> > Doug Jones
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
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> >
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