[Vision2020] News Article, Mental Illness, Fixation of Belief Discussion

Art Deco deco@moscow.com
Wed, 21 May 2003 20:06:23 -0700


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Re: Quantum, etc.

About Quantum theory, for the careful reader of this dialogue, I said, =
that although it does not appear contradictory, current quantum physics =
like all science is a work in progress and will always be.  It certainly =
has some inadequacies.  It as it now stands is not a unified theory of =
matter.  However, progress in knowledge from quantum theory impacts =
greatly the technology we use in everyday life.

If you read the great quantum physicists with care, they do not claim =
their theories are a description of reality but are heuristic models for =
predicting results and designing further experiments.  In layman terms, =
those theories are thinking aids.

I am glad that I cannot believe contradictions.  The statement "A and =
not A", where A means exactly the same in both occurrences is always =
false in my eyes, let alone those of mathematicians, scientists, the =
large majority of the human population, etc.

There are very intelligent people who are rabidly religious.  There are =
many very intelligent people who suffer to various degrees of other =
kinds of mental illness.  Deep needs propel people to do many irrational =
things, deep religious belief being only one of them.  Bright people can =
live with contradictions because they can use (and overuse) the defense =
mechanisms of compartmentalization, repression, and fantasy.  They do =
this over and over whether their fantasies are religious or secular.

You have not tried to answer the main dilemma for the religious.  The =
existence of a great multitude of different religions whose statements =
of their fundamental creed are contradictory in the sense defined in =
paragraph 3 above to the others.  There are adherents of these faiths =
who are just as rabid about the truth of their beliefs as are the =
leaders of our local cult.  There is not an existing unequivocal method =
of deciding who is correct in this matter, if anyone.  If there were, we =
would not be having this dialogue.  There might be such a method in the =
future.  One or more of the alleged gods might make an unequivocal =
physical appearance to every human on earth, for example, and change all =
our minds.

The statements in religious creeds are knowledge claims and subject to =
the same tests and criticisms that other knowledge claims are.  Internal =
logical consistency is the most basic of those tests.  Most would reject =
any mathematical or scientific claim that fails to be internally =
consistent before proceeding with other tests.  I see no mentally =
healthy reason to exempt religion or other esoteric belief systems from =
such requirements.  Either the statements they are couched in are =
knowledge claims or not.  If not, they, like a lot of mythology, etc., =
are highly entertaining.  If they are knowledge claims, evidence and =
consistency is required.  Logical consistency for most of the mentally =
healthy population is the minimum requirement for the truth of a =
knowledge claim.

If you are content in your beliefs, that's fine. But please do no give =
them the status of knowledge claims then refuse the most basic tests of =
same.  Before replying reread paragraph 3 above.

Wayne Fox
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Joshua Nieuwsma=20
  To: Art Deco ; vision=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 4:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] News Article, Mental Illness, Fixation of =
Belief Discussion


  Quantum Physics and Mr. Fox

  there was once a fox that was very hungry. As he was walking along, he =
came across a bunch of grapes hanging from a vine above the road. He =
proclaimed to himself just how much he loved grapes, and proceeded to =
jump wildly at the bunch. But with each jump his jaws snapped shut on =
empty air. The fox grew more and more frantic, leaping wildly. But to no =
avail. The grapes were out of reach. So the fox declared to the world =
that he hated and despised grapes beyond all other created things, and =
went his way, still hungry. And the moral of this story, attributed to =
Aesop, was that it is easy to hate what one cannot get. Or in the case =
of Mr. Wayne Fox, what one cannot understand.
      Lots of big words, Mr. Fox, lots of big words. But you fail to =
mention that even the great Quantum Theory scientists do not truly =
understand quantum theory, and they admit it too.=20
      Mr. Fox has also forgotten that there are many paradoxes in =
Quantum Theory. What of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (EPR) paradox and =
Schr=F6dinger's cat? Neither of these have been solved by science. And =
in their race to try to solve these paradoxes, physicists have clearly =
lost their grasp of reality and have gone off into their own little =
fairieland, except that instead of unicorns this one has "entanglements" =
and "flavors" and "retrospective causalities" and lots of numbers and =
symbols. =20
      Mr. Fox, your statements about mental treatment for such believers =
threaten many a respected physicist in the secular community. Or anyone =
who has been an evolutionary biologist for, say, more than two weeks, =
and written any sort of article about the macro-evolution of anything. =
And perhaps they should be locked up for arguing that unicorns don't =
exist, but shape/type-changing monsters do (think of the drawings of the =
supposed reptile-bird creatures). By your definition, modern scientists =
come really close to being delusional for inventing things that cannot =
be tested empirically or observed as the Scientific Method dictates.=20
      Mr. Fox, you must be completely unable to enjoy any sort of story, =
especially myth.=20
    =20
  -joshua nieuwsma


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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>Re: Quantum, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>About Quantum theory, for the =
careful=20
reader of this dialogue, I said, that although it does not=20
appear&nbsp;contradictory, current quantum physics like all science is a =
work in=20
progress and will always be.&nbsp; It certainly has some =
inadequacies.&nbsp; It=20
as it now stands is not a unified theory of matter.&nbsp; However, =
progress in=20
knowledge from quantum theory impacts greatly the technology we use in =
everyday=20
life.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>If you read the great quantum =
physicists=20
with care, they do not claim their theories are a description of reality =
but are=20
heuristic models for predicting results and designing further =
experiments.&nbsp;=20
In layman terms, those theories are thinking aids.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>I am glad that I cannot =
believe=20
contradictions.&nbsp; The statement "A and not A", where A means exactly =
the=20
same in both occurrences is always false in my eyes, let alone those of=20
mathematicians, scientists, the large majority of the human population,=20
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>There are very intelligent =
people who are=20
rabidly religious.&nbsp; There are many very intelligent people who =
suffer to=20
various degrees of other kinds of mental illness.&nbsp; Deep needs =
propel people=20
to do many irrational things, deep religious belief&nbsp;being only one =
of=20
them.&nbsp; Bright people can live with contradictions because they can =
use (and=20
overuse) the defense mechanisms of compartmentalization, repression, and =

fantasy.&nbsp; They do this&nbsp;over and over whether their fantasies =
are=20
religious or secular.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>You have not tried to answer =
the main=20
dilemma for the religious.&nbsp; The existence of a great multitude of =
different=20
religions whose statements of their fundamental creed are contradictory =
in the=20
sense defined in paragraph 3 above to the others.&nbsp; There are =
adherents of=20
these faiths who are just as rabid about the truth of their beliefs as =
are the=20
leaders of our local cult.&nbsp; There is not an =
existing&nbsp;unequivocal=20
method of deciding who is correct in this matter, if anyone.&nbsp; If =
there=20
were, we would not be having this dialogue.&nbsp; There might be such a =
method=20
in the future.&nbsp; One or more of the alleged gods might make an=20
unequivocal&nbsp;physical appearance to every human on earth, for =
example, and=20
change all our minds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>The statements in religious =
creeds are=20
knowledge claims and subject to the same tests and criticisms that other =

knowledge claims are.&nbsp; Internal logical consistency is&nbsp;the =
most=20
basic&nbsp;of those tests.&nbsp; Most would reject any mathematical or=20
scientific claim that fails to be internally consistent before =
proceeding with=20
other tests.&nbsp; I see no mentally healthy reason to exempt religion =
or other=20
esoteric belief systems from such requirements.&nbsp; Either the =
statements they=20
are couched in are knowledge claims or not.&nbsp; If not, they, like a =
lot of=20
mythology, etc., are highly entertaining.&nbsp; If&nbsp;they are =
knowledge=20
claims,&nbsp;evidence and consistency is required.&nbsp; Logical =
consistency for=20
most of the mentally healthy population is the minimum requirement for =
the truth=20
of a knowledge claim.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>If you are content in your =
beliefs, that's=20
fine. But please do no give them the status of knowledge claims then =
refuse the=20
most basic tests of same.&nbsp; Before replying reread paragraph 3=20
above.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>Wayne Fox</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djoshuahendrik@yahoo.com =
href=3D"mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com">Joshua=20
  Nieuwsma</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddeco@moscow.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> ; <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 20, 2003 =
4:16 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] News =
Article,=20
  Mental Illness, Fixation of Belief Discussion</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Quantum Physics and&nbsp;Mr. Fox</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>there was once a fox that was very hungry. As he was walking =
along, he=20
  came across a bunch of grapes hanging from a vine above the road. He=20
  proclaimed to himself just how much he loved grapes, and proceeded to =
jump=20
  wildly at the bunch. But with each jump his jaws snapped shut on empty =
air.=20
  The fox grew more and more frantic, leaping wildly. But to no avail. =
The=20
  grapes were out of reach. So the fox declared to the world that he =
hated and=20
  despised grapes beyond all other created things, and went his way, =
still=20
  hungry. And the moral of this story, attributed to Aesop, was that it =
is easy=20
  to hate what one cannot get. Or in the case of Mr. Wayne Fox, what one =
cannot=20
  understand.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lots of big words, Mr. Fox, lots of big=20
  words.&nbsp;But you&nbsp;fail to mention that even the great Quantum =
Theory=20
  scientists do not truly understand quantum theory, and they admit it=20
  too.&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Fox has also forgotten that there are many =

  paradoxes in Quantum Theory.&nbsp;What of =
the&nbsp;Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen=20
  (EPR) paradox and Schr=F6dinger's cat? Neither of these have been =
solved by=20
  science. And in their race to try to solve these paradoxes, physicists =
have=20
  clearly lost their grasp of reality and have gone off into their own =
little=20
  fairieland, except that instead of unicorns this one has =
"entanglements" and=20
  "flavors" and "retrospective causalities" and lots of numbers and=20
  symbols.&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Fox, your statements about mental =
treatment for=20
  such believers threaten many a respected physicist in the secular =
community.=20
  Or anyone who has been an evolutionary biologist for, say, more than =
two=20
  weeks, and written any sort of article about the macro-evolution of =
anything.=20
  And perhaps they should be locked up for arguing that unicorns don't =
exist,=20
  but&nbsp;shape/type-changing&nbsp;monsters do (think of the drawings =
of the=20
  supposed reptile-bird creatures). By your definition, =
modern&nbsp;scientists=20
  come really close to being delusional for inventing things that cannot =
be=20
  tested empirically or observed as the Scientific Method dictates. =
</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Fox, you must be completely unable to =
enjoy any=20
  sort of story, especially myth. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>-joshua nieuwsma</DIV>
  <P>
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