[Vision2020] Douglas Wilson's Rationale:
Van Deventer, Jack
jack@wsu.edu
Mon, 12 May 2003 12:42:22 -0700
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Has Douglas Stambler resurfaced on Vision2020 as Art Deco? I need a
scorecard anymore.
Jack
______________________________
Jack Van Deventer
jack@wsu.edu
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Art Deco [mailto:deco@moscow.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 12:35 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Douglas Wilson's Rationale:
=20
Re: Eric of Redhawk
=20
There is a difference between imposing and persuading. There is a
difference between persuading with what the persuader believes is an =
honest
argument and persuading by sand bagging, ignoring the real issue at had =
by
diversion, cleverly concealing the nature of one's beliefs, and/or flat =
out
lying about one's true beliefs and using obliviously spurious arguments =
to
support them with the hope that the unsophisticated will be fooled.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Eric Engerbretson <mailto:eric@eric-e.com> =20
=20
To: Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Douglas Wilson's Rationale:
=20
That sounds great, W., but the problem is=96 EVERYBODY thinks they are
"keeping
their beliefs reality based and reviewing and testing them frequently". =
So,
you may=20
think your beliefs are better than those of others because you "test =
them
frequently" but, obviously, testing standards vary.
You say people shouldn't impose their beliefs on others, yet you hope =
to
change the world with that very method. The fact is, the world will not
change at all until some people's beliefs are "imposed" on others and =
those
others see that those beliefs make good sense and ultimately show =
themselves
to be true.=20
So, puhleez, stop with the imposing bans on imposing. The only way to =
stop
imposing
your beliefs on others would be to never write another letter to this =
list.
Impose away, but
call it what it is. And quit calling people presumptuous by being
presumptuous.
Eric Engerbretson
On Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 20:24 US/Pacific, Art Deco wrote:
<?fontfamily><?param Arial Narrow><?smaller><?smaller>Eric of Redhawk
Crossing,<?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily>
=20
<?fontfamily><?param Arial Narrow><?smaller><?smaller>I try to keep my
beliefs reality based and review and test them frequently. In the =
short run
some of my ideas may cause people like yourself some discommoding =
moments.
In the long run, I hope the world will be
better.<?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily>
=20
<?fontfamily><?param Arial
Narrow><?smaller><?smaller>W.<?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily>
<?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param 4C4C,4C4C,4C4C>
<?/color><?/fontfamily>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Has
Douglas Stambler resurfaced on Vision2020 as Art Deco?<span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0 </span>I need a scorecard =
anymore.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Jack<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle18><font=20
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'mso-element:field-begin'></span><span=20
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Signature" <span=20
style=3D'mso-element:field-separator'></span></font></span><![endif]--><=
font
color=3Dblue><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>______________________________<o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></p>
<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Jack Van =
Deventer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>jack@wsu.edu</span></font><font =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Art Deco
[mailto:deco@moscow.com]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, May 12, =
2003 12:35
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
vision2020@moscow.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: =
[Vision2020] Douglas
Wilson's Rationale:</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Arial =
Narrow"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:black'>Re: =
Eric of
Redhawk</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Arial =
Narrow"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:black'>There =
is a
difference between imposing and persuading. There is a difference =
between
persuading with what the persuader believes is an honest argument and
persuading by sand bagging, ignoring the real issue at had by =
diversion,
cleverly concealing the nature of one's beliefs, and/or flat out lying =
about
one's true beliefs and using obliviously spurious arguments to support =
them
with the hope that the unsophisticated will be =
fooled.</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>----- Original =
Message
----- </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
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<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
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color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>
<div style=3D'font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href=3D"mailto:eric@eric-e.com" title=3D"eric@eric-e.com">Eric =
Engerbretson</a> </span></font></div>
<font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
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black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:nav=
y'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
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</div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold=
'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> =
Sunday, May
11, 2003 8:58 PM</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:win=
dowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold=
'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Re: [Vision2020] Douglas Wilson's =
Rationale:</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:4.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>That sounds
great, W., but the problem is=96 EVERYBODY thinks they are =
"keeping<br>
their beliefs reality based and reviewing and testing them =
frequently".
So, you may <br>
think your beliefs are better than those of others because you =
"test them
frequently" but, obviously, testing standards vary.<br>
<br>
You say people shouldn't impose their beliefs on others, yet you hope =
to change
the world with that very method. The fact is, the world will not change =
at all
until some people's beliefs are "imposed" on others and those =
others
see that those beliefs make good sense and ultimately show themselves =
to be
true. <br>
<br>
So, puhleez, stop with the imposing bans on imposing. The only way to =
stop
imposing<br>
your beliefs on others would be to never write another letter to this =
list.
Impose away, but<br>
call it what it is. And quit calling people presumptuous by being =
presumptuous.<br>
<br>
<br>
Eric Engerbretson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 20:24 US/Pacific, Art Deco =
wrote:</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
</div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black =
1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><?fontfamily><?param Arial =
Narrow><?smaller><?smaller>Eric
of Redhawk Crossing,<?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily><br>
<br>
<?fontfamily><?param Arial Narrow><?smaller><?smaller>I try to =
keep my
beliefs reality based and review and test them frequently. In the =
short
run some of my ideas may cause people like yourself some discommoding
moments. In the long run, I hope the world will be =
better.<?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily><br>
<br>
<?fontfamily><?param Arial =
Narrow><?smaller><?smaller>W.<?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></span>=
</font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
</div>
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0in 4.0pt'>
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Arial><?color><?param 4C4C,4C4C,4C4C><font
size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
color:black;font-weight:bold'><br>
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